Switching to Sicilian, but which Sicilian?

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pleewo

Isn’t that a Slav line?

pleewo
mrOpenRuy wrote:
FrogboyWarpz wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:
IronSteam1 wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:

i think finding this setup is not very hard

a6 prevents white attacking the backwards pawn, e5 gains space, and Be6,Be7,Nbd7 is logical

I'd say it's logical once someone has learned and understands the Najdorf. Not really logical to a player who is unfamiliar with the Sicilian, though.

Generally, the principled approach is to have both pawns centralized (e5 and d5). Or d5, with e6 to support it.

e5 and d6 is a bit unusual, as it leaves a hole on d5, and makes the e7 bishop look rather misplaced. To a player who doesn't know Najdorf theory, the kneejerk assumption would likely be that e5+d6 is, visually, a mistake.

Compare that to a more "principled" type of setup, which might look something like this (with slight variations, depending on what white plays):

Looking at the Najdorf setup, in contrast ... we can see that black goes through some development contortions, in order to justify the structure.

Again, I'm not criticizing the Sicilian - but these kinds of ideas require some work to grasp.

There was a player on these forums a year or two ago who was very vocal about how wrong he thought the Najdorf was - specifically because of the backward d6 pawn. He considered it a positional mistake that allowed white persistent and continual pressure on black's position. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I can sympathize with players like him - as the Najdorf is not always easy to understand.

id say that most openings dont follow principles once you get into theory. just look at the main line of the ruy lopez

then look at it without a theory

I have no idea what you are talking about! Almost all openings still have a strong backbone for opening principles even when you get into theory!

to an extent, but when black and white usually play theory its more about the computers best moves or the books moves which usually arent very principled as you might get in the 4 knights italian

Please show some example lines. Because from what I know, the engine’s top 2 moves for white are e4 and d4.

mrOpenRuy
FrogboyWarpz wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:
FrogboyWarpz wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:
IronSteam1 wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:

i think finding this setup is not very hard

a6 prevents white attacking the backwards pawn, e5 gains space, and Be6,Be7,Nbd7 is logical

I'd say it's logical once someone has learned and understands the Najdorf. Not really logical to a player who is unfamiliar with the Sicilian, though.

Generally, the principled approach is to have both pawns centralized (e5 and d5). Or d5, with e6 to support it.

e5 and d6 is a bit unusual, as it leaves a hole on d5, and makes the e7 bishop look rather misplaced. To a player who doesn't know Najdorf theory, the kneejerk assumption would likely be that e5+d6 is, visually, a mistake.

Compare that to a more "principled" type of setup, which might look something like this (with slight variations, depending on what white plays):

Looking at the Najdorf setup, in contrast ... we can see that black goes through some development contortions, in order to justify the structure.

Again, I'm not criticizing the Sicilian - but these kinds of ideas require some work to grasp.

There was a player on these forums a year or two ago who was very vocal about how wrong he thought the Najdorf was - specifically because of the backward d6 pawn. He considered it a positional mistake that allowed white persistent and continual pressure on black's position. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I can sympathize with players like him - as the Najdorf is not always easy to understand.

id say that most openings dont follow principles once you get into theory. just look at the main line of the ruy lopez

then look at it without a theory

I have no idea what you are talking about! Almost all openings still have a strong backbone for opening principles even when you get into theory!

to an extent, but when black and white usually play theory its more about the computers best moves or the books moves which usually arent very principled as you might get in the 4 knights italian

Please show some example lines. Because from what I know, the engine’s top 2 moves for white are e4 and d4.

so many examples

tlay80
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

@ssctk

Can you explain what you're referring to by the Geller plan?

I believe he's thinking of these two games:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048646

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044555

pleewo

Computer doesn’t recommend alekhine, and I don’t think it likes Benoni/Benko very much either. 
Im not sure computer loves Grunfeld so much but it still makes sense 👍

mrOpenRuy

those are still valid, playable examples

and the grünfeld is blacks best move

MaetsNori
FrogboyWarpz wrote:

@IronSteam1, @icy, @tlay80

what do you think of the Sveshnikov for the average club player?

I generally like to delay my queen knight's development, in case I want to put it on d7 - so I don't really play the Sveshnikov. Others here would likely know better than I would.

But I'd say it's perfectly valid, if you like it - and have learned the basic setup of it.

Magnus played it against Caruana in the World Championship - so you know it's got to be good.

At the club level, I imagine a booked-up Sveshnikov player would generally outplay his white opponents, as I doubt many club players spend much time learning how to play against it. (At that level, I'd say something like the Dragon is far more common to see ...)

pleewo

Cool 😎

SamuelAjedrez95

The Boleslavsky structure may seem illogical in some senses if you are only thinking about the weaknesses. There is a hole on d5 and d6 is backwards.

As you said @IronSteam1, there was someone who didn't understand the position and claimed this was a positional mistake.

We know, however, that this is actually completely fine for black and there is dynamic compensation in exchange for the weaknesses. This is the same with many other structures in chess, like the IQP structure or hanging pawns structure. There is a structural weakness but it's perfectly playable as there are other benefits. The structures have their own logic and learning about this is a necessary part of chess improvement.

SamuelAjedrez95
barglegargle wrote:

It's in an Open Sicilian though, fairly uncommon in casual play.

🥲

2. Bc4 is what all the cool kids are playing nowadays.

mrOpenRuy
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

The Boleslavsky structure may seem illogical in some senses if you are only thinking about the weaknesses. There is a hole on d5 and d6 is backwards.

As you said @IronSteam1, there was someone who didn't understand the position and claimed this was a positional mistake.

We know, however, that this is actually completely fine for black and there is dynamic compensation in exchange for the weaknesses. This is the same with many other structures in chess, like the IQP structure or hanging pawns structure. There is a structural weakness but it's perfectly playable as there are other benefits. The structures have their own logic and learning about this is a necessary part of chess improvement.

the boleslavsky structure should only be played with a6 allready on the board. otherwise white is winning,

ssctk
tlay80 wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

@ssctk

Can you explain what you're referring to by the Geller plan?

I believe he's thinking of these two games:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048646

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044555

Indeed these were the first versions of Geller's plan, later evolved by Karpov. It's not the sort of plan that can be stopped intuitively over the board. The Najdorf is full of pitfalls that can only be avoided by studying theory, expecting to diffuse them OTB is unrealistic, unless one has greater intuition than Fischer, Nunn , who had opening loses ( not losses that occured from the middlegame, the opening decided the outcome).

It needs good knowledge of theory to be played, more so than other openings that is, and it has lots of theory. If one can master the theory without this time consuming exercise being at the cost of other areas of the game, it can only be a good thing as it's a great weapon, Kasparov and Fischer weren't fools. But they were also professionals, while most players are probably better off investing that time to improve their game.

pleewo

Improving your chess openings, IS improving your game! 
Just my opinion, but a good 40% of your time should be on the opening! And studying the middle games that arise from it

SamuelAjedrez95

So basically it's the idea with Be3-a4-a5 then.

SamuelAjedrez95

@FrogboyWarpz

Exactly, time invested into the opening is totally worth it if you consider that interesting and a part of your own journey of learning. Learning other parts of the game is important as well of course.

TheSampson

If you're willing to memorize a large amount of theory, then the obvious answer would be the Najdorf. According to theory, it's the best Sicilian. However, If you're not willing to memorize 15 different lines from move 6, I would either split it between the Dragon variation or the Paulsen-Kan variation. The Dragon is a bit more well-known, so your opponents might have a bit of prep against it, but most players are just oblivious to the Kan. If you want to take your opponents by surprise, the Kan would definitely be the best choice.

If you decide to play the Najdorf, know that you not only have to know its 15 different lines, you also have to learn the Closed Sicilian, the Grand Prix Attack, the Smith-Morra Gambit, the Alapin Sicilian, the Wing Gambit, and a dozen more major sidelines that need to be punished properly.

mrOpenRuy

if you dont want theory the dragon sicilian is not what should be recommended

SamuelAjedrez95

@TheSampson

If you play any Sicilian you also face the Closed, Grand Prix, Smith-Morra, Alapin, Wing Gambit, and the others. That's not specific to the Najdorf. If you play the Dragon or Kan, you face them just as much.

In the Najdorf there are about 7 lines which are played 90% of the time. Also, once you've learned something about a few, you start to get a hang of the structure and can improvise against a lot of the others. At least at our level, it's not necessary to know loads of theory for every single line.

You can start playing and learn as you go. Trying to memorise everything is not a good learning strategy at first. Learning through experience and anchor games helps you understand the ideas instead of just memorising them.

Chuck639
Ultimate-trashtalker wrote:

My recommendation will be the kan and o'kelly for new players.... it's great and low theory

I agree and picked up over 200+ easy rapid points within two months against the 1500-2000 bracket players because both are easier to play and the plans are straightforward.

https://www.chess.com/game/live/74019657637

https://www.chess.com/game/live/72210972045

SamuelAjedrez95

It depends on your style and what you find easiest to understand personally. For some, the Kan may be better suited. For others, the Najdorf is best.