Here's a better example: If you have a computer with a world champion opening book that looks 3 moves ahead, and have it play against a computer with no opening book that looks 4 moves ahead, the computer that looks 4 moves ahead will win almost every game. Actually, it'll probably win every game. This 'more tactical' personality will win because you can't win the game without tactics.
Interesting point!
In an attempt to illustrate why you should probably try other games, just think of the simple move h3. Many trainers and lessons tell us that playing h3/h6 as a profilactic move is a waste of tempo - and, in many cases it is. So just how confusing is it that you need to play it in some variations? When you're just learning not to play moves like that.
If you decide, for example, on move #9 after the main line, that you're gonna play d4 because h3 is a beginner's move, then the next turn you get a black bishop on g4. So you play h3 now, but he just goes to h5! Now you can choose: do you want to play g4 and invite a mating attack, or just let him sit there for the rest of your game. It won't mean you're necessarily losing, but it WILL mean that you'll be enjoying the rest of that game about about as much as this dog:
If you play 9.d4 instead of 9.h3 the bishop will come to g4, but if you play 10.h3 the bishop will not go to h4 but will play ...Bxf3 followed by ...exd4. So instead of 10.h3 you must play 10.d5 releasing the pressure on Black's e5 (which is the whole point of 3.Bb5). If you play 11.h3 the bishop will not go to ...h4 but will go back to ...c8; since the bishop did its job when you played d5.
Well if you choose to retreat the bishop then you can do that, but keeping it on the knight is much more troublesome for White than to release the pin, and capturing isn't as effective either. I would never release the pin if I had gotten my bishop to g4 after d5.
On 10 h3 10...Bxf3 is very effective 11.Qxf3 (or gxf3 and White's King is exposed and his kingside pawn structure wrecked) 11...exd4 12 cxd4 Nxd4 and Black has an decisive advantage. If you don't see this then you are not ready to study openings in detail and should learn elementry tactics and general theory about the opening play. After White plays 10. d5 (which I hope you see now is pretty much forced) ...Na5 11.Bc2 c6 12.h3 then playing ...Bh5 does not preserve the pin since White plays 13.g4 and the bishop is out of play. If Black wants to preserve the bishop, 12...Bd7 does not work because of simple tactics 13.Nxe5 and if 13...dxe5 14.d6. By the simple process of eliminaiton this leaves 12...Bc8. I really don't think you are ready for a study of the Ruy Lopez yet, but if you are intrested in this line look at the games Yates - Rubinstein, Hastings 1922 and Yates-Rubinstein, Baden-Baden 1925.
I don't understand why beginning players have to avoid openings with a lot of "theory." All that theory is essentially irrelevant. Your beginner is not going to be playing Magnus Carlsen! He's going to be playing another beginner, who doesn't know reams of theory either. They will both struggle to find their way, and they'll learn some chess in the process. And after the game, the ambitious beginner will look in an opening book and try to figure out what he should have played, and he'll learn something.
Personally, I think all players should start out playing openings that are oriented towards occupying the center and developping your pieces fairly rapidly, but there are certainly lines in the Ruy where that's the idea. But the most important thing is to play, play some more, and analyze your games honestly. It hardly matters what opening you choose
First of all Black doesn't have to know that much theory to play the Spanish, he can get active piece play. White has to play very precisely to maintain an positional edge, one mistep and the game blows up in White's face. The main lines of the Ruy Lopez are closed and White does not develop his pieces fairly rapidly, but instead relies on lengthy knight maneuvers to get his Queen knight to the kingside. Beginning White players should play open games and concentrate on rapid development and tactics. In order to play a closed opening, you need to know when to open the position. Closed openings can suddenly become open, but an open line is unlikely to become closed. To play a closed opening you have to understand open lines. Therefore beginners should start with open games and not attempt closed ones until they have mastered the open game. If underground would stick to the first 5 moves or so it wouldn't be so bad, but he is going deep into the line and missing obvious tactics.
Why not play the Spanish four knights game?
Because it is much easier for Black to equalize against the Spanish four knights and it doesn't have the lasting pressure that the Ruy Lopez has.
Beginners don't even know what it means to equalize lol...
You are right. I had forgotten that this was a thread for beginners. I agree that the four knights (either Spanish or Scotch) is excellent for beginners.
Beginners should play chess--lots of it! And they should play lots of openings and get a feel for lots of different kinds of positions. The most important thing is to get experience and to get in the habit of thinking for one's self. If closed positions are too tough for beginners, what do they do when the opponent plays the French or the Pirc? At every level, a player has to learn how to play different types of positions, so there's no sense putting it off.
Against the French, the exchange variation. Against the Pirc the 150 attack. If Black goes into an unkown closed variation, they should look for a pawn sacrifice to open lines of attack.
I am considered the greatest provisionally-rated-1014-USCF-after-10-OTB-games player of all time.
Here is my valued opinion, which is actually that of a master-level player I met at an OTB tournament who had taught scholastic chess and adult beginners for many years...
First stage:
But after this stage (at about my level he said, believe or not), if a beginner is serious about playing tournament chess, s/he absolutely needs an opening repertoire (but no memorizing without understanding). Why learn a second-rate opening just to beat other second-rate players consistently?
Learning a simple opening as a beginner (like the London, for instance) is best for students who:
Learning a complex opening as a beginner (including -gasp- the Ruy Lopez) are best for students who:
After this stage, the "complex"-opening player should theoretically be stronger than the "simpler"-opening player, all else being equal. I know I am going to seriously take to heart what he said and start memorizing more BDG lines.
I wouldn't get tied into any single opening. If you book up on the Ruy, what do you do when faced with the Pirc/Modern or Alekhine? Panic?
Better to get a broad view of the common openings and the basic principles for each. Become a specialist later (much later). Reuben Fine's "Ideas Behind the Chess Openings" is a good resource, and there are other books like it.
I wouldn't get tied into any single opening. If you book up on the Ruy, what do you do when faced with the Pirc/Modern or Alekhine? Panic?
Better to get a broad view of the common openings and the basic principles for each. Become a specialist later (much later). Reuben Fine's "Ideas Behind the Chess Openings" is a good resource, and there are other books like it.
Take it by the horns and prove to them why most people dont use them as primary weapons.
this game features an opening that is not one of my primary responce to the sicillian, but it was fun and it worked out
http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=178088564
But won't you be more successful at 'taking it by the horns' if you've educated yourself in some broad fundamental principles for the common openings?
Thats what I did at first, looked for good squares for knights Bishops, learned about tempo and development, and King safety
On 10 h3 10...Bxf3 is very effective 11.Qxf3 (or gxf3 and White's King is exposed and his kingside pawn structure wrecked) 11...exd4 12 cxd4 Nxd4 and Black has an decisive advantage. If you don't see this then you are not ready to study openings in detail and should learn elementry tactics and general theory about the opening play. After White plays 10. d5 (which I hope you see now is pretty much forced) ...Na5 11.Bc2 c6 12.h3 then playing ...Bh5 does not preserve the pin since White plays 13.g4 and the bishop is out of play. If Black wants to preserve the bishop, 12...Bd7 does not work because of simple tactics 13.Nxe5 and if 13...dxe5 14.d6. By the simple process of eliminaiton this leaves 12...Bc8. I really don't think you are ready for a study of the Ruy Lopez yet, but if you are intrested in this line look at the games Yates - Rubinstein, Hastings 1922 and Yates-Rubinstein, Baden-Baden 1925.
It speaks of inexperience when you automatically assume that this "wrecked" pawn structure is a disadvantage. THe g pawn effectively becomes another contender for the center, and more than anything, this opens the g file directly onto the enemy king - a perfect place for the Rook.
The truth is that in this lopez game, re-capturing with the queen is a very bad choice, and it is one that someone of little experience who clings to "generalities" will make. The queen stays in the center, reinforcing the d-pawn. Next the rook takes the g-file and the double f-pawns begin to march up the board. The d4 squares quickly loses importance.
Please consider practical thinking before making statements you believe are right, which isn't saying much from someone your level.
Lol by the way, you might do well to take notice of the fact that White lost both those games you posted by Yates, in which he re-captured with the queen instead of the g-pawn (the 2nd innacurracy, the first being that he didn't play h3 when he needed to).
It speaks of inexperience when you automatically assume that this "wrecked" pawn structure is a disadvantage. THe g pawn effectively becomes another contender for the center, and more than anything, this opens the g file directly onto the enemy king - a perfect place for the Rook.
The truth is that in this lopez game, re-capturing with the queen is a very bad choice, and it is one that someone of little experience who clings to "generalities" will make. The queen stays in the center, reinforcing the d-pawn. Next the rook takes the g-file and the double f-pawns begin to march up the board. The d4 squares quickly loses importance.
Please consider practical thinking before making statements you believe are right, which isn't saying much from someone your level.
Let me make sure I got this right. After your 13 gxf3? and the further ...cxd5 14.exd5 we have the position below(which resembles a Nadjorf Sicilian); and it's your contention White's pawn structure is an asset. All White has to do is move his king off the g-file, move the rook to the g-file, and march the double isolated f-pawns up the board and destroy Black. Did it occur to you, that while White is doing all this reorganizing Black will also be making moves?
I think you're confused. At what point exactly do you figure that cxd5? The only reason to play d4-d5 is to avoid capture from the c-pawn after c5. It is not recommended to lose the d&e center, which will further be supported by the f pawns and the c-pawn depending on further variables. On the Queenside/Centre, Black can only successfully open the c-file with good play by white.
I think you're confused. At what point exactly do you figure that cxd5? The only reason to play d4-d5 is to avoid capture from the c-pawn after c5. It is not recommended to lose the d&e center, which will further be supported by the f pawns and the c-pawn depending on further variables. On the Queenside/Centre, Black can only successfully open the c-file with good play by white.
Please pay attention and follow the moves. You are confusing the Yates variation with the Chigorin variation which it superficially resembles. In the Yates variation Black does not play ...c5. Please note in the position below that the Black c-pawn is not on c5 and that White must release the central tension with either 10. d5 or Bobby Fischer's 10 Be3, your suggested 10.h3? does not work. Black plays 11...c6 and after your 13. gxf3? Black plays 13...cxd5. I don't mind taking the time to explain things to you, but I wish you would at least play through the moves before making your comments.
Hey listen, I am going through the moves, and I am OK with discussing this as well. However, I never suggested playing h3 after Bg4 - that is a pointless move. I had mentioned in an example that once your knight is pinned, you could try to remove the pin with h3 but that it would not be effective simply for the fact that the bishop could retreat to either a5 or c8 depending on the variation. You suggested that the bishop would capture knight, in which case gxf3 - but that presupposes that d5 was not played.
Once again, I do not understand why you are playing d5. There is no logic behind it, other than superficially "attacking" the knight?? The pawn as it is on d4 is fully supported by: the c-pawn, the queen, and the Knight when you play h3 to prevent Bg4, which is what the point of h3 is.
Also, I was referring to the two example games you posted, and saying that the Yates variation is actually considered by many to be a failure on White's part for allowing the pin.
Now, if you are partial to allowing the pin, as you seem to be, then you need to play d3 instead of d4. That is a valid plan in its own right. What I have been saying is that d4 absolutely needs to be preceded by a profilactic h3. As soon as black moves his d-pawn, it's white's cue to prepare h3 if he wants to play d4.
IF he does not do that, then, like we saw, we get the Bg4 pin and are unable to hold the center, and forced to make moves we don't want such as d5.
Everyone will have their own opinions, and no beginner should be spending a lot of time on openings, but I'm a big believer in the Italian Game as a great first opening to learn. With the Fried Liver, the Two Knights and the Evans Gambit, you'll quickly be forced to learn about the importance of initiative and tactics, two extremely important concepts for a beginner to learn.
Then when you "graduate" to the Ruy Lopez, you'll be able to appreciate the difference as you begin to play fierce battles for the central squares (rather than just playing for a quick, tactical flurry).
What I have been saying is that d4 absolutely needs to be preceded by a profilactic h3. As soon as black moves his d-pawn, it's white's cue to prepare h3 if he wants to play d4.
IF he does not do that, then, like we saw, we get the Bg4 pin and are unable to hold the center, and forced to make moves we don't want such as d5.
There are a lot of high rated grandmasters that disagree with your assertion that White has to prepare d4 with 9.h3. GM Mihail Marin states: "The statistics reveal that this variation is highly popular among strong grandmasters. In a remarkably high percentage of the recent games the average rating of the players is above 2600."
Bobby Fischer (who used the Yates Variation to defeat Korchnoi) says this in My 60 Memorable Games. "An old try, championed by Yates and Alekhine, but discarded in the course of progress. It is still theoretically crucial -- on its success (or failure) hinges the necessity of White's losing a temo here with the customary 9.P-KR3"
Here is a link to the variation:http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=C91
Note that the statistics are White wins: 37.3% Black wins: 24.9% Draws: 37.9%
Players on the White side include: Capablanca, Alekhine, Fischer,
You are probably wise to prefer 9.h3 since the Yates variation is difficult both strategically and tactically, but it is rather presumptuous of you to declare that 9.d4 is an inaccuracy.
Why not play the Spanish four knights game?
Because it is much easier for Black to equalize against the Spanish four knights and it doesn't have the lasting pressure that the Ruy Lopez has.