The French Defense

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jackattack246

Yeah I was wondering if anyone could help me. I was using chess.com's "Game explorer" for opening and such. And as I wondered through I came across:

E4 E6, D4 D5, NF3

And on the side, where it gives you a list of all the moves that have been in made in a master game, DxE4 is there at all. Is it that bad of an option? Could someone please explain to me why noone would ever do that

Daniel-Bhola

It is not a bad option, not at all. But people who play the French Defense wouldn't want to take the pawn on e4. What i realized about French players is they tend to like "clustered games" for both sides


If Black plays dxe4 it turns the game into a sort of open position for White after Nxe4, Nc6 and then Nf3. Black wants to keep the board closed for both players, if someone has to get opened up, it would want to be the black player. You could take the e4 pawn if you want because in the position above, it is more or less even. It is playable

Hope this helped you,

Daniel

SinjinStJohn

So, with move one: 1.e4, white says he's taking his share of the center, and there's nothing black can do about it, because he (white) gets to move first.

With 1...e6, black says, "ok, but I'm setting up a solid defense in the center, and watch out for move #2, where I'm threatening 2...d5, taking my own share."

On move two: 2.d4, white says, "hey, you're letting me set up my ideal center -- awesome."

Black replies, "2...d5.  Now I've got my share.  PLUS, if you try to capture, I'm ready because my first move set up the re-capture exd5, which guarantees me a share in the middle no matter what you do.  NOW, you've got to beware, or I'm going to convert that into a captured pawn of my own, because for the moment, you've got nothing covering your butt on e4."

That pretty much sets up the struggle in the French.  From there, it is perfectly logical for white to advance the e-pawn (converting his first move advantage into a space advantage in the center), or to protect his e-pawn with Nc3 or Nd2 (which develops a piece, and accepts that if black captures, he (white) will have to move the piece a second time, but material equality will be restored AND black will have given up his share of the center).

That simple logic is why more than 9.5 out of every 10 master level games in the French continue with one of those three moves.

If white plays 3. Nf3 instead, he gives up the pawn, and accepts that he'll have to move the knight a second time immediately without compensation.  Playing Nf3, he essentially hands black equality or better on a platter.  The move is illogical, and is why you will almost never see a master level game continue in this way...and is why if you DO see a game continue with Nf3, why you will almost ALWAYS see the dxe4 capture.  Because it forces exactly those concessions.

Put simply: 3.Nf3 is poor chess, and 3...dxe4 is the best way for black to take advantage of it in a hurry.

Time4Tea

I think you've both misunderstood the OP's point.  In the Game Explorer, there are no master games where Black has won after white played 3.Nf3 - 3 wins for white and 1 draw.  The thing is, if black does play 3...dxe4 then that pawn is going to be a bit of a pain to defend anway, isn't it, if white plays 4.Ng5, for example?

SinjinStJohn
Time4Tea wrote:

I think you've both misunderstood the OP's point.  In the Game Explorer, there are no master games where Black has won after white played 3.Nf3 - 3 wins for white and 1 draw.  The thing is, if black does play 3...dxe4 then that pawn is going to be a bit of a pain to defend anway, isn't it, if white plays 4.Ng5, for example?

There are no master games like this because masters don't play like this, which means the law of small sample sizes applies.  If a master wins a game with 1.h3, and then never plays it again, his score with the opening is 100%.  That doesn't make it a good opening.

If you go looking for the reason he won with it, it's because he's a master.  If you go looking for the reason it's never played, you turn to logic.

Time4Tea
SinjinStJohn wrote:

...and is why if you DO see a game continue with Nf3, why you will almost ALWAYS see the dxe4 capture.  Because it forces exactly those concessions.

Put simply: 3.Nf3 is poor chess, and 3...dxe4 is the best way for black to take advantage of it in a hurry.

Although, if you actually look at the Game Explorer, the position after 3.Nf3 was reached in Master level games about 200 times.  Apparently, not once did Black respond 3...dxe4.  Makes you wonder why, doesn't it, if it's as good a move as you suggest ... ?

Goddric

I don't know what databases say  and I don't care.After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 Black is already better   and a clear pawn up that can be defended.

Time4Tea

Why does everyone posting in this thread seem to be missing the point?

Guys, I'm not trying to defend 3.Nf3 in the French (I have no intention of playing it myself).  I completely agree that, as far as I can see, 3 ... dxe4 seems give Black a clear advantage.

BUT (and here's my point):  None of this explains why, in the Game Explorer database, 200 masters playing Black have decided NOT to play dxe4 in this position.  Again, I'm not trying to defend Nf3 - I'm just genuinely baffled and so far no-one has been able to shed any light on this.

Time4Tea

Some possible explanations that I can think of:

  • The Game Explorer is a bad/misleading database - maybe this is a bug of some sort?
  • These masters playing Black just prefer closed positions and are willing to pass up a potentially good opportunity to get one/don't want to get dragged out of their opening book
  • It's the same master who's played all these games and for some reason he/she doesn't like accepting the gambit
  • There's more to the accepted variation of the Perseus Gambit than us mere mortals realize
Time4Tea

So, this Chess database isn't very good for researching Chess games that have been played?  If that's the case it sort of begs the question as to why I'm still paying for it/wasting my time with it.

So, richie_and_oprah, what DB do you use/recommend?

Time4Tea

Ok, here's some more evidence that points the finger at the Game Explorer:

so, here it seems that there are ~200 games that reached this position.  Apparently, dxe4 hasn't been played in any of them.

Time4Tea

Now, I click on 'view all games from current position' and ...

suddenly those 200 games have morphed into 4.  Wonderful ...

pfren

It's quite easy to find out why NOONE has played 3...de4.

The reason is that NOONE actually played the idiotic move 3.Nf3 (some gambiteers in here may argue that it's great- you know...).

All the games you see with moves other than 3...de4 are by move transposition.

Time4Tea

Ok, thanks richie_and_oprah, I will certainly check out some of those links.  I'm really starting to feel that I need something better than this.

Time4Tea
richie_and_oprah wrote:

how many games does it have (by players 2200+) after 3. Nf3?

Well, either 4 or 200 (depending on which inconsistent part of it you believe).

(btw, who's zilbermints?)

Time4Tea

@ pfren:  thanks for your comment, but I don't disagree that 3.Nf3 is an unsound gambit.  I think my beef here is more with the Game Explorer ...

Time4Tea

Lol - that's pretty funny!  I wonder if there's a zilbermints variation to this gambit  :-)