the scotch

black doesn't have to guard e5 pawn anymore :D

The main line scores better, so does the exchange variation as a matter of fact. It's not that the scotch isn't good ( i like it for people I have beaten before) it's just that it gives black more options because there is less pressure.

They are better by how much compared to the Scotch lines? 0.1 centipawns? Pretty pointless difference at anything below super GM level. I've played both the Scotch and Ruy and I always got the feeling that black handled the Scotch alot worse then the Ruy at my playing level.

I like the Marshall from both sides, its fun!  One reason Black plays the Scotch worse than the Ruy is that more players who will essay 1... e5 are looking for a Ruy.  They may have a line for the Kings Gambit, Guiocco, Bishop, Scotch, Vienna, etc but where they really put their time is in the Ruy, "real" chess.  If you've someone you play the Scotch with regularly they'll start giving you the same problems in the Scotch as they do in the Ruy.

Anyone interested in playing The Scotch should join this group.

http://www.chess.com/groups/view/the-scotch-fans-team

It's obvious you love the scotch, but you can't say that an ancient move put down by many great players of the past could be impossible to equalize against because Kasparov found some new ideas?? Black most certainly can equalzie in many lines, you're going by statistics which almost always have a slight favor to white because black has to consistently play the right moves in the 5 Nxc6 line to fully equalize which isn't always done. Just look at the ruy lopez in the game explorer. It wins about 45% of the time with white no matter what black plays! There are many lines going over 15 moves where black still can't equalize! I don't think you understand that in the scotch white plays for dynamic attacks or struggles with the advanced e5 pawn while in the ruy white plays for long term pressure on the kingside, center, and queenside. You think the scotch is better because you don't see obvious huge attacks with white in the ruy because it's a slow positional buildup and that will just not happen. Although this makes the opening quite good, it's obviously not for everyone because it may be boring to them and of course alot of theory. it's very different from playing an open sicilian where you can try to attack immediately but with some risk involved. I think it's a bit much for the scotch to go from refuted to "black can never equalize!". I don't think the scotch is bad at all, but theoretically it's not going to give black problems out of the opening unless he plays the wrong move, but of course there is a sharp middlegame to be played.

Chess is a draw. Black can eventually equalize in ALL openings frequently played at GM level.

lol i agree with scarblac chess is a draw no matter what the only way some one loses is by making a blunder or misstake or even a inaccuracy

I am speaking in terms of performance Elo based on my Ref DB of 3.6 million games. Here is a complete break down of the Scotch after 1 e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 (by far the most popular and best response for black)

11390 Games in 'Cannibal result'
1. History

2. Players

a) Strong grandmasters who used this line as Black:

b) Other notable players:

3. Statistics
Black scores averagely (46%).
Black performs Elo 2129 against an opposition of Elo 2157 (-28).
White performs Elo 2179 against an opposition of Elo 2151 (+28).
White wins: 4624 (=41%), Draws: 3118 (=27%), Black wins: 3644 (=32%)
The drawing quote is low. (6% quick draws, < 20 Moves)

White wins are shorter than average (37).
Black wins are of average length (38).
Draws are shorter than average (34).

4. Moves and Plans

a) 5.Be3

6410 Games, 1842-2009, Ø=1996
White scores averagely (55%).
Elo-Ø: 2088, 3289 Games. Performance = Elo 2117
played by: Kasparov, 2790, 2.5/3; Ivanchuk, 2713, 2/3; Azmaiparashvili, 2674, 3.5/4; Radjabov, 2673, 0.5/1; Salov, 2665, 0.5/1;

You should play: 5...Qf6 Click for games


Salov,V - Karpov,A ½-½; Movsesian,S - Shirov,A ½-½; Charbonneau,P - Bacrot,E 0-1; Wang Hao - Harikrishna,P 0-1; Kristjansson,S - Shirov,A 0-1; Rublevsky,S - Svidler,P ½-½

Main line:

Critical line:
6.c3 Nge7 7.Qd2 Bxd4 8.cxd4 d5 46 % Black. Click for games

b) 5.Nxc6

2795 Games, 1842-2009, Ø=1999
White scores averagely (56%).
Elo-Ø: 2253, 1972 Games. Performance = Elo 2274
played by: Kasparov, 2802, 3/5; Anand, 2798, 0/1; Anand, 2765, 0.5/1; Radjabov, 2744, 0.5/1; Shirov, 2712, 2/2;

You should play: 5...Qf6 Click for games


Morozevich,A - Tkachiev,V 0-1; Kasparov,G - Anand,V ½-½; Sadvakasov,D - Kramnik,V 0-1; Rublevsky,S - Akopian,V 0-1; Kasimdzhanov,R - Tkachiev,V 0-1; Kasimdzhanov,R - Tkachiev,V 0-1

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Qf3 Qxc6 7.Bd3 Ne7 50 % Black. Click for games

c) 5.Nb3

1666 Games, 1876-2009, Ø=1993
White scores below average (52%).
Elo-Ø: 2215, 929 Games. Performance = Elo 2220
played by: Karpov, 2742, 1.5/2; Ivanchuk, 2716, 1/1; Rublevsky, 2678, 1.5/5; Mamedyarov, 2657, 0.5/1; Movsesian, 2647, 0.5/1;

You should play: 5...Bb6 Click for games


Rublevsky,S - Naiditsch,A 0-1; De la Riva Aguado,O - Mamedyarov,S 0-1; Novikov,S - Aleksandrov,A 0-1; Mamedyarov,S - Onischuk,A ½-½; Korneev,O - Moreno Carnero,J 0-1; Rublevsky,S - Anand,V 0-1

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Bd3 50 % Black. Click for games

Plans White:

Plans Black:

d) 5.Nf5

277 Games, 1846-2006, Ø=1993
White scores averagely (53%).
Elo-Ø: 2197, 147 Games. Performance = Elo 2220
played by: Timman, 2615, 3.5/4; Nisipeanu, 2594, 1/2; Ljubojevic, 2590, 0/2; Savon, 2570, 0.5/1; Hort, 2534, 1/1

You should play: 5...Qf6 Click for games


Ljubojevic,L - Karpov,A 0-1; Ljubojevic,L - Karpov,A 0-1; Timman,J - Huebner,R 1-0; Palau,I - Sorin,A 0-1; Sibarevic,M - Klaric,Z 0-1; Gasanov,E - Belikov,V ½-½

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Nc3 g6 33 % Black. Click for games

Plans White:

Plans Black:

e) 5.c3

170 Games, 1898-2006, Ø=1998
White scores badly (39%).
Elo-Ø: 1857, 56 Games. Performance = Elo 1799
played by: Urban, 2490, 0/1; Geller, 2433, 0.5/1; Handoko, 2410, 0/1; Kos, 2402, 0.5/1; Minzer, 2380, 0/1

You should play: 5...Qf6

Geller,J - Jenetl,R ½-½; Kos,T - Medancic,R ½-½; Doehner,H - Schueler,W 0-1; James,G - Wicklund Hansen,R 0-1; Koren,J - Lukac,R 0-1; Zapata,D - Ramos,E ½-½

f) 5.Nf3

59 Games, 1987-2006, Ø=1999
White scores miserably (31%).
Elo-Ø: 1524, 13 Games. Performance = Elo 1465
played by: Leshchenko, 2175, 0/1; Hirota da Silva, 2085, 0/1; Bocina, 2025, 0/1; Baroska, 1880, 0.5/1; Thiede, 1700, 0.5/1

You should play: 5...d6

Assmann,H - Denda,R 0-1; Siegismund,V - Enders,G 0-1; Schacht,T - Winz,M 0-1; Jentzsch,J - Morawetz,K ½-½; Bocina,M - Puljic,B 0-1; Fiebinger,J - Prax,I 0-1


Alternative: 5...Nf6

Hirota da Silva,N - Kubrusly,J 0-1; Baroska,A - Veres,A ½-½; Reichert,M - Beck,T 0-1; Leshchenko,V - Vovk,O 0-1; Roitzsch,P - Kahlcke,K 1-0; Shlykova,A - Dogodkina,Y 0-1

I would show you the comparison to the main line of the RL

But there are so many games that it will take a couple hours for my computer to sort them all :)

lol i think thats to much info

Information is something you can never have too much of. The more you have the better prepared you can be. Like I said before I like the Scotch, it just isn't (statistically speaking) as strong as the RL.  It was mentioned before that an advantage like this only matters "at Super GM level", but I disagree. I have spent WAY to many hours downloading games from the players here, as well as other sources, to make sure I have a complete picture at every level.

Btw make sure your comparison with RL is made with the most popular black line in the RL or your comparison will have little value. Tbh to be totally fair you need to compare the line from the beginning and not somewhere in the middle picking the most favorable line for black. It will taint the data.

LOL you cant analyze a position "From the beginning", a position is a position no matter how it was arrived to. To be completely fair I will analyze the RL after 5 moves in the main line (the same number of moves used here). And I didn't Pick the line, I went with the main line because it is the strongest replies for BOTH sides. I am not trying to slant the data, I just call it like I see it. As soon as I have a chance I will try to do the report, I don't make any promises though. As I said earlier due to the number of games in the RL main line it will take a while for my machine to go through them all and build an accurate report. Its times like this I wish I had a NASA PC to work with.

I never said beginning of a position. I said beginning of the lines. The Scotch begins with 3. d4 and RL begins with 3. Bb5. Why is it important to count from the beginning? Because if you don't it will disregard the confusing effect of the some scotch lines. Why are the lesser lines important? Because you are trying to show us that scotch is a lesser opening for white then rl EVEN at sub GM level.

At super GM level ofcourse you can pick the best lines for both and analyze them and compare. But that is not what you were trying to prove right?

I chose the main line because it is the best shot for white to win, the "Lesser" lines are lesser for a reason. You MAY win if someone overlooks the best responce to your variation, but the further you go from the mainline the worse it gets. Here is the report for the RL same number of moves into the mainline.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0

C65, 4...Nf6
73600 Games in 'Cannibal result'
1. History

2. Players

a) Strong grandmasters who used this line as Black:

b) Other notable players:

3. Statistics
Black scores averagely (44%).
Black performs Elo 2283 against an opposition of Elo 2325 (-42).
White performs Elo 2358 against an opposition of Elo 2316 (+42).
White wins: 28203 (=38%), Draws: 26540 (=36%), Black wins: 18831 (=26%)
The drawing quote is Average. (8% quick draws, < 20 Moves)

White wins are of average length (41).
Black wins are of average length (42).
Draws are shorter than average (35).

4. Moves and Plans

a) 5.0-0

60929 Games, 1859-2009, Ø=1987
White scores above average (57%).
Elo-Ø: 2339, 36679 Games. Performance = Elo 2371
played by: Fischer, 2785, 82/109; Kasparov, 2782, 57.5/81; Kramnik, 2776, 14.5/25; Topalov, 2720, 50/72; Shirov, 2716, 73/100;

You should play: 5...Be7 Click for games


Kasparov,G - Ivanchuk,V 0-1; Leko,P - Anand,V 0-1; Kramnik,V - Leko,P 0-1; Leko,P - Aronian,L 0-1; Leko,P - Anand,V 0-1; Anand,V - Kamsky,G 0-1

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Qe2 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 Na5 41 % Black. Click for games

b) 5.Qe2

3139 Games, 1849-2009, Ø=1988
White scores above average (57%).
Elo-Ø: 2282, 1973 Games. Performance = Elo 2322
played by: Svidler, 2765, 0.5/1; Anand, 2715, 1/1; Kamsky, 2675, 2/2; Polgar, 2630, 3/3; Yudasin, 2622, 1.5/2;

You should play: 5...b5 Click for games


Ehlvest,J - Anand,V 0-1; Tiviakov,S - Short,N 0-1; Tiviakov,S - Leko,P 0-1; Tiviakov,S - Sokolov,I ½-½; Tiviakov,S - Almasi,Z ½-½; Tiviakov,S - Adams,M ½-½

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Bb3 Bc5 7.a4 Bb7 8.axb5 axb5 50 % Black. Click for games

Plans White:

Plans Black:

c) 5.d3

4113 Games, 1858-2009, Ø=1986
White scores averagely (54%).
Elo-Ø: 2241, 2334 Games. Performance = Elo 2263
played by: Ivanchuk, 2748, 1/1; Ivanchuk, 2746, 0.5/1; Topalov, 2735, 0/1; Morozevich, 2719, 8/10; Ponomariov, 2715, 1.5/4;

You should play: 5...d6 Click for games


Sadvakasov,D - Onischuk,A 0-1; Yudasin,L - Huebner,R 0-1; Morozevich,A - Adams,M ½-½; Magem Badals,J - Sokolov,I 0-1; Topalov,V - Anand,V 0-1; Iordachescu,V - Krasenkow,M ½-½

Main line:

Critical line:
6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 h6 57 % Black. Click for games

Plans White:

Plans Black:

Alternative: 5...b5

Smagin,S - Socko,B 0-1; Morozevich,A - Ivanchuk,V 0-1; Morozevich,A - Bacrot,E 1-0; Zhang Pengxiang - Peng Xiaomin 0-1; Panarin,M - Azarov,S 0-1; Korneev,O - Karjakin,S 0-1

d) 5.d4

3668 Games, 1855-2006, Ø=1988
White scores above average (58%).
Elo-Ø: 2248, 2165 Games. Performance = Elo 2308
played by: Kramnik, 2777, 0.5/1; Romanishin, 2610, 1/2; Gashimov, 2592, 3.5/5; Beliavsky, 2590, 1/1; Malaniuk, 2560, 0.5/1

You should play: 5...exd4 Click for games


Gashimov,V - Ivanchuk,V 0-1; Isaev,J - Mamedyarov,S 0-1; Pisk,P - Volzhin,A 0-1; Luecke,N - Blatny,P 0-1; Kramnik,V - Adams,M ½-½; Ostos,J - Socko,B 0-1

Main line:

Critical line:
6.e5 56 % Black. Click for games

e) 5.Bxc6

621 Games, 1883-2006, Ø=1990
White scores averagely (54%).
Elo-Ø: 2281, 376 Games. Performance = Elo 2325
played by: Wolff, 2595, 1/1; Kharlov, 2594, 1/2; Papaioannou, 2588, 2/2; Gavrikov, 2563, 0.5/1; Solak, 2558, 2/2

You should play: 5...dxc6 Click for games


Kharlov,A - Khalifman,A ½-½; Kurajica,B - Karpov,A 0-1; Ivanov,A - Shirov,A 0-1; Meister,Y - Inarkiev,E 0-1; Sevillano,E - Ibragimov,I 0-1; Kharlov,A - Beliavsky,A ½-½

Main line:

Critical line:
6.Nc3 Bc5 7.d3 56 % Black. Click for games

Plans White:

Plans Black:

f) 5.Nc3

1015 Games, 1858-2006, Ø=1967
White scores below average (47%).
Elo-Ø: 2078, 270 Games. Performance = Elo 2075
played by: Morozevich, 2707, 0.5/1; Short, 2677, 0.5/1; Inarkiev, 2595, 1/1; Ehlvest, 2590, 0/1; Vladimirov, 2586, 0.5/2;

You should play: 5...b5

Vladimirov,E - Kaidanov,G 0-1; Benjamin,J - Kaidanov,G 1-0; Spassky,B - Jussupow,A 0-1; Short,N - Peng Xiaomin ½-½; Morozevich,A - Kaidanov,G ½-½; Damaso,R - Postny,E 0-1


Alternative: 5...d6

Smolovic,M - Nikac,P 0-1; Jovanovic,Z - Atalik,E ½-½; Smolovic,M - Miguel Lago,V 0-1; Buljovcic,I - Danilovic,M ½-½; Teske,H - Meissner,H ½-½; Kilian,R - Hort,V ½-½

g) 5.c3

61 Games, 1913-2006, Ø=1992
White scores badly (46%).
Elo-Ø: 2023, 15 Games. Performance = Elo 2030
played by: Hort, 2600, 1/1; Sax, 2560, 0.5/1; Sahu, 2380, 0.5/1; Klein, 2260, 1/1; Sabater Comas, 2000, 0.5/1

You should play: 5...b5

Sikora Gizynska,B - Jurczynska,A 0-1; Sabater Comas,J - Zapata Rios,J ½-½; Hajek,J - Ondrova,M 1-0; O'Neill,T - Parry,M 0-1; Thalwitzer,D - Hankel,D 0-1; Klein,P - Kiss,Z 1-0


Alternative: 5...Be7

Niemers,J - Usachyi,M ½-½; Pompert,E - De Bode,C 0-1; Beyazit,M - Gunay,A 0-1; Agier,J - Saiah,K 0-1; Sadowski,D - Jankowski,J 0-1; Hamadto,I - De Castro,E 1-0

like I said before, sorry if these facts upset ayone. Draw whatever concusion you want, the numbers are right there.

And as I said earlier my DB isn't just GM games. This score reflects every level of play, so the "Confusing lines" that you refer to are most likely accounted for. Name one and I will check it in my DB and post the score for comparison.

While technically true, mistakes always happen unless in dull positions, even with Kasparov and Karpov.

lol

crazy

Of course. Actually they also happen in dull positions!

But saying that the Scotch leads to equality and the Ruy doesn't is just wrong, imo. They both do. All major openings eventually lead to equality, given perfect moves - although of course not all lines have been worked out yet, and probably won't be, it's still my belief that all major openings are equal at the end of it.

So let's not debate that - what's more important is the type of game they lead to, which side has more say in what sort of game it's going to be, how rich the resulting positions are, et cetera.