Thoughts on 1.Nc3

'If I hang my queen for five moves...' What kind of an argument is that? That would indeed be unorthodox opening play, but surely not what you're aiming for ...

You still haven't proven my point wrong. 1.Nc3 nearly always transposes to other well-known openings. French, Caro-Kann, Richter-Veresov, Bird, even Reti. It has no independent significance as an opening.

this line is fine for both sides, but a little bland. i usually play for a d4, g3 formation, trying to put pressure on black's queenside of try to exploit the double pawns to form some d-passer or some d4, c4, b4-b5 pawn break long term. Black is very solid, but for quite some time, white is the only one with any claim for an advantage.

the lines with ng3, bc4 and d3 are actually pretty decent for white. in a lot of these lines, i often feel d4 is more of a target for black than an advantage. you basically play to aim at black's light squares. bc4 d3, nf3 qe2 0-0 re1 ng5 stuff is usually seen, with a lot of sac potential. even if white doesnt get the attack, white has decent piece placement and nothing for black to shew on. it probably does equalize a bit quicker than the d4 bd3 ne2 lines but white has most of the fun.

it takes two to make an exciting bold game, thats just part of life.

have you actually taken a look at, knight on the left?

Yes, of course. A friend of mine used to play 1.Nc3 all the time. He and I had numerous Caro-Kanns and hardly any of his other games were anything more than transpositions to mainline openings. They just happened to start 1.Nc3.

What are you trying to prove? 2.f4 is just Bird's Opening, 2.Nf3 is the Mexican Defence with colours reversed, and 2.g4 is the Grob. Furthermore, if you're French or Caro-Kann player, your immediate instinct is to reply 1...d5 to 1.Nc3, not 1...e6 or 1...c6, because you're not particularly worried about the Richter-Veresov. Do you intend to play 2.g4 against that as well?

This discussion is getting really tedious, because all you're trying to prove is the non-existant originality of the Dunst. It constantly leads to mainstream openings. Nothing wrong with that, of course, because it enables you to avoid certain lines you don't like. However, you can't claim much by way of originality.

Why would black play 1.Nc3 e6? 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6 is the French

Just so, my137thaccount! Same for the Caro-Kann. Black plays 1...d5, not 1...e6 or 1...c6, and Black even has the option of cutting out the latter move should he/she chose to do so and get a Caro-Kann with a tempo up.

DeirdreSkye: Arguably 1...d5 limits White's options even more than 1...e6, and makes it easier to get the French Defence desired.

That said, we're clearly just 'arguing' over the Pope's beard here. If White really wants to avoid the French, the Caro-Kann, the Sicilian etc., and play say Bird's Opening, the Reti or Zukertort, Nimzowitsch-Larsen, the Grob and so on; 1.Nc3 is clearly a suboptimal choice as a first move. It doesn't even fit well into any of those openings. As you say, the Mexican Opening with colours reversed is about the only neat fit, and that isn't exactly going to strike fear into the hearts of opponents.

Yeah, I was simply pointing out that 1.Nc3 e6 2.f4 is irrelevant if black plays 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6, I think you misunderstood

A 1.Nc3 player needs to embrace the idea of transpositions. The French, Caro-Kann, etc. are pretty much unavoidable without going really off the rails.

That said, many of these transpositions come at a cost to black, and there are independent lines worth considering.

1. Nc3 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d5
A Scotch-esque game that can only be good for white, it seems.

1. Nc3 e5 2. d5
Ultimately equal, but still playable. Reminds of the Center Game in that regard.

1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 d4 3. Ne2
The main appeal of Nc3, in my opinion. Very complex and interesting, though the computer likes black. You can call it a variation of the Scandinavian if you want, but it occurs much more often via a 1.Nc3 move order.

There are other options as well, from sound open games to unsound crazy gambits, but if these positions appeal to you for whatever reason then Nc3 seems a good choice.

Why are you discussing 1.Nc3 e6? Nobody mentioned it in this thread except you. It would be like discussing the options after 1.Nc3 b6 when nobody will play it.

You're clearly not reading what I'm writing properly. First of all, most Caro-Kann and French Players would reply 1...d5 (not 1...e6 or 1...c6). Secondly, I did point out that 1.Nc3 is a suboptimal move in many of the variations. Just because you can't play c4 on the fourth of fifth move, doesn't mean that you haven't played a Grob (it just means that you've played a line which isn't better than the main line Grob). The same goes for all the others. You don't normally want to play Nc3 that early, if at all. And Mexican Defence with colours reversed, ehrm ... well that's exactly the point: we're only in the early opening stages yet.

We're just saying that 1.Nc3 has very little independent significance. You get opening systems which are typically main-line and not always in a good way for White (because may not want to commit your knight to c3 that early.

No. The point of the French Defense is to play d5 without losing the central pawn. Hence, black plays 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6, not the nonsensical 1.Nc3 e6

It's an entirely different opening. On his second move White threatened the pawn on e5, and Black defended it. 1.Nc3 threatens nothing and doesn't actually take control over any centre squares after Black's most natural reply 1...d5.

Just as DeirdreSkye points out, it has no independent significance. It doesn't make it a bad move as such, just that it won't lead to original positions. It will just transpose to one mainline opening or another.

Why don't you pay attention to what we're saying? A French or Caro-Kann player is quite happy to reply 1...d5 in response to 1.Nc3, because they get to play straight away the move they're normally preparing for when they play 1...e6 or 1...c6. Against 1.e4 it has to be prepared by 1...e6 or 1...c6 (unless Black fancies playing the Scandinavian). Furthermore, they're unlikely to go into any type of mirror Alekhine with colours reversed. If White plays 2.e4, those players are much more likely to reply 2...e6 or 2...c6, than 2...d4.

Some diagrams to clarify things for @gambitlover:

No one is disputing the playability of the White second moves that you mention, but after 1.f4 d5, how many Bird players are likely to play 2.Nc3, instead of say 2.b3 or 2.Nf3? It's just an inferior line in the Bird's Opening! You're just being silly for the sake of argument. 1.Nc3 doesn't have any independent significance, unless Black cooperates. And why should s/he? Black gets to play his/her openings without much hindrance from White. Why is it so difficult for you to admit that?

I don't see a way for black to gain an advantage. I'm no Scotch expert, so I'll defer to Keilhack's analysis, but neutral or +/= is only better for white, yes?

@BonTheCat -- You keep saying "no independent significance". As far as I can tell, at least several of the "main" lines are not direct transpositions, and yet offer white as much a chance at advantage as the London system. Does the London have independent significance?

this is one reason i have almost completely given up on posting here on chess.com

you give 5 paragraphs of information addressing all these points and two pages of replies later, you get the same nonsense being discussed in 2 sentence replies by patzers to each other. 

DO YOU NOT READ!?