Tips for the russian system of the grunfeeld defence

Important games,general plans,common mistakes.

i am asking from white side and Na6 i will just do what anand did vs aroninan

The problem in answering your question is that the discussion is beyond the opening from the white perspective as white made all the opening choices (Russian system) and already has a plan for like the next 10 moves (develop, castle, don't lose your queen, respond to black's threats if any... just play normal chess.)

After 6. Qxc4 0-0 7. e4 black does have a lot of options. If you are asking the black side it is interesting to look at the lines. If you want to discuss from the white side you have to go back to looking at whether the Russian system is any good.

thats my point i know there are many options for black somebody should tell the pros and cons and i dont think responding to the oponent threats is a good plan [silman] even when your white.Question one more what abot Qb3 c6

I am planing to put the work on it just want to have a foundation first

I think we need to backtrack here. I am a d4 player so I do have some thoughts about the KID in general. To start I have some questions for you:

1. If you see the KID (d4 Nf6 c4 g6), do you even allow the Grunfeld proper with 3.Nc3. If so, why? Have you considered other lines?

I don't like the Grunfeld main line and I like all Neo-Grunfeld (3. g3 I play a lot. After seeing g6 why not fianchetto my own bishop.) and knight not on c3 lines (that would be 3. Nf3). If after Nf3 black tries a Grunfeld (3. Nf3 d5!?), after 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 I like my position in that the knight cannot take on c3 and has to retreat to a bad square. I think Samisch is also good because of the big center but I don't like the tricky nature of the lines.

In general I will go into a Grunfeld like postion only if either:

- The knight cannot capture on c3.

- Black's is not doing a fianchetto.

So at least against me most of your prep would be for nothing.

2. Lets say you do play 3.Nc3 and black goes along and plays the Grunfeld, what attracts you to the Russian system other than the name? You need to know this at least or else you will waste time on lines that you either will not like or will never play.

For myself I know I don't like the exchange main line. I don't mind the Quiet system though (4. Nf3 Bg7 5. e3) which might end up looking like a Catalan (which is completely fine for me), and also completely take Gruneld off the books.

The Russian system I don't like because I don't like the queen on c4 and the fact it looks similar to a Grunfeld main line.

Being a Former 1.d4 player, and a Former advocate of the Russian Variation as White, and a current advocate of the Grunfeld as Black, I can answer your questions:

1) The problem with 3.g3 is that you are committed to the Fianchetto King's Indian if you are happening to face a KID player and not a Grunfeld player.  If the Fianchetto Variation is what you play on a regular basis against the King's Indian, then this is a complete non-issue.  However, if White doesn't like the extremely positional lines of the Fianchetto KID, then he can't play this as there is no guarantee that ...d5 is coming, black could play ...d6, and many Grunfeld players have done this, where they play the Grunfeld against 3.Nc3, but specifically switch to the KID against the Fianchetto Lines.

For those that play the Saemisch against the King's Indian, they can look at the "Anti-Grunfeld", which is 3.f3, but then you are committed to the Saemisch if they play the King's Indian, and if not, Grunfeld players can still play 3...d5, which leads to a totally different game.

2) What attracts White to the Russian System is, like the Exchange Variation, White gets the Big Center (i.e. 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 followed by 7.e4).  What is different about the Russian System compared to the Exchange Variation is that Black has not been able to trade off a set of pieces, namely Knights, like he does in the Exchange Variation.  This trade of pieces can help Black's cramp, so the idea with the Russian Variation is to keep an extra set of pieces on the board that Black must manouver within his restricted area.

The Quiet System gets White nothing.  It's a dead equal game and a fairly simple draw.  A couple of weeks ago I faced a player about 100 above me, and the game started 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3, and I had ZERO problems maintaining a balanced position, and there was nothing he could do but surrender half a point.

I think it is important for white to try to generate attacking chances instead of protecting his centre.

If you protect your centre when you are white you will be attacking the wrong side since you will be attacking yourself instead of your opponent.

The 3.g3 line against the Grunfeld is not played more often at the top level due to the extremely solid line with 3...c6 followed by d5, where it is not easy for white to play for a win. The top Grunfeld players almost always play the a6 and b5 line against the Russian System, but the Nc6 line and other alternatives have held up for black as well.

@ThrillerFan Very good points on the Grunfeld and the Russian system. I am quite interested in what you are playing now as white? In any case I think this should be helpful for PPS2.

1) You are right that I do play and have no problems at all with the Fianchetto King's Indian. As a d4 player I don't think I am too afraid of positional lines to start. Black can always choose a QGD for example and thats rather positional. In fact in almost any opening black can choose to play solid and positional. For sharp stuff to happen both sides have to go into it (sometimes by mistake, but mostly due to playstyles).

One thing about 3. Nf3 is that it is white that initiates lines with either g3 or one of the Neo-Grunfeld stuff that I think is good. Instead if white plays Nc3 it is black that initiates the lines by either going Grunfeld or just a KID. For white I rather limit black's options and play lines I like.

If the black player plays Grunfeld regularly and white gets him into a Fianchetto KID, that should be a success to the white player as they are completely different. Black's idea of a kingside attack of KID is basically stopped before it starts and black has to play positional. If black can play both sharp Grunfeld and also positional stuff well black is a very good player.

2) I think you are right about the Russian System and I might actually give it a go sometime. I do wonder what if black on move 4 does something else like 4.Nf3 c6 (not Bg7). Would you still go Qb3 or would you play something else?

Well, given that it's been so long since I played the mainstream Queen Pawn openings, it's hard to say what I "would have done" against 4...c6, which is extremely passive.

That said, many lines of the Grunfeld Proper are extremely positional in nature (i.e. 10...Bd7 line in the Classical Exchange Variation), so it's not like you are throwing a Grunfeld Player off of his game by playing a positional line.

As for myself and White, I went thru a 2-year stint back in 2007 to 2009 and another 6 months or so the 2nd half of 2014 playing 1.b4.  First half of 2014 I did a brief stint of the Torre against Nf6/g6 and Nf6/e6 and Colle against early ...d5 lines, but that was short lived as those lines get White nothing really except maybe the Torre against KID.  Otherwise, it's been mainly 1.e4.  Open Sicilian, Ruy Lopez (Exchange against 3...a6, Main Line Responses to other lines, like 3...g6 4.d4, 3...Nge7 4.c3, 3...Nf6 4.O-O, etc), Advance French, Fantasy Caro-Kann, Austrian Attack against Pirc/Modern, Classical (4.Nf3) against the Alekhine, 3.Nf3 against the 2...Qxd5-Scandinavian, 3.d4 against 2...Nf6 Scandinavian, etc.

@PPS2 4. Qb3 is the Accelerated Russian System, and it is a different line because your queen is there a move earlier. I am sure it avoids some lines but will invite other lines. Do you want to look at that or 4. Nf3 first?

To study openings you have to be precise for what you are looking at. All I know about the Accelerated is that it is supposedly a good line.

i will look at 4.qb3 dont know what lines it invites somebody please tell