Why do u think that 4.Ng5 is a bad move ??
Two Knights trap
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Oct 28, 2015
0
#3
GM_NitishDas wrote:
Why do u think that 4.Ng5 is a bad move ??
Anyone who beleives in the myth that moving a peice twice in the opening does...
HashRib wrote:
HashRib wrote: Begginers will fall to this trap.1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1
Begginers will fall to this trap.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1
Hadron wrote:
GM_NitishDas wrote:
Why do u think that 4.Ng5 is a bad move ??
Anyone who beleives in the myth that moving a peice twice in the opening does...
So do u think that black gets a serious disadvantage in the Alekhine's Opening ?
HashRib wrote:
Begginers will fall to this trap.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1
Don't really think beginners would play 5..Na5.
HashRib wrote:
Begginers will fall to this trap.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1
That's nonsense. The move 4. Ng5 is perfectly playable. In fact, it's one of the most popular moves in the Two Knights Defense. White wins a pawn after 4...d5 5. exd5 Na5!, because the knight recapture on d5 is considered dubious. On the other hand, Black obtains a good lead in development. It's an imbalanced middlegame. With good play, both sides will be fine, so 4. Ng5 is by no means a bad move. It can only be bad if White plays terribly in the middlegame. By the way, who would ever play 10. Ng1?
RubiksRevenge wrote:
HashRib wrote:
Begginers will fall to this trap.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1
Don't really think beginners would play 5..Na5.
Exactly.
Actually, I've seen beginners fall for this trap:
Wow, that was nice! Generally, the Traxler isn't the soundest way to play against 4. Ng5, but it's fun! In fact, the obvious 5. Nxf7!? isn't the best. After 5...Bxf2, things become extremely complicated. A single blunder can make either side lose. Many lines have actually been analyzed until a forced draw. Instead of 5. Nxf7!?, 5. Bxf7+! can actually be troublesome for Black.
Oct 29, 2015
0
#11
Fiveofswords wrote:
4 ng5 is a good move.
I think so too. Tarrasch called it a patzer's move but he was never quite able to prove it.
now what fiveofswords
Nov 23, 2015
0
#13
Fiveofswords wrote:
well thats just a different line. c3 is what white plays. im sure that line is fine and all because lots of good players do it i just feel its a bit awkward and violates my personal sense of logic. because c3 is a useful move that at the moment threatens b4 also gives queen some scope and blacks pressure on f2 feels less relevant than h2. because after some eventual d4 or d3 and ed nxd3 white has f2 covered quite well. so it just feels to me like black is misplacing his bishop kinda. like i said i know the line is fine theoretically i just personally dislike the logical aesthetics
What do "logical aesthetics" have to do with anything? After 10...Bc5 11.c3 Black simply plays 11...0-0 and if White goes through with his "threat" of 12.b4 Black plays 12...Bd6 attacking White's Ne5.
Now White has two ways of supporting the knight: 13.d4 and 13.f4. If 13.d4 exd3 14.Nxd3 Nc4 and Black's finely placed knight gives him compensation for his pawn minus. Just some quick lines from Komodo 9.3 at depth of 23, I usually let it go to depth 35+. In any case it seems like White is the one fighting for equality here.
13.d4 exd3 14.Nxd3 Nc4
(14...Nc4 Komodo 9.2 64-bit -0.20 (depth 23) 15.O-O a5 16.Bf4 axb4 17.cxb4 Nd5 18.Bxd6 Nxd6 19.Bf3 Qf6 20.Nd2 Bf5 21.Nc5 Nxb4 22.a3 Nc2 23.Rc1 Nd4 24.Ndb3 Nxf3+ 25.Qxf3 Rxa3 26.Rfd1 Nb5 27.g4 Be6 28.Qxf6 gxf6 29.Nxe6 fxe6 30.Nc5)
(14...Nc4 -0.42 (depth 23) 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Nxf4 Qxd1+ 17.Kxd1 Ne5 18.Kc1 Bf5 19.Ba6 Rad8 20.h4 Rfe8 21.a4 Nd5 22.Nxd5 Rxd5 23.f4 Nd3+ 24.Bxd3 Bxd3 25.Ra2 Re3 26.Rb2 Bf5 27.Rd1 Rxd1+ 28.Kxd1 Re4 29.Nd2 Rxf4 30.Nf3 Be4 31.Rf2)
(14...Nc4 -0.44 (depth 23) 15.Nc5 Re8 16.O-O Nb6 17.Nd2 a5 18.Nf3 Nbd5 19.Bd2 Qb6 20.Bd3 axb4 21.cxb4 Nxb4 22.Bxb4 Nd5 23.Rb1 Nxb4 24.Bh7+ Kxh7 25.Qxd6 Bf5 26.Nd7 Qa7 27.Nf8+ Rxf8 28.Rxb4 Qxa2 29.Qxc6 Rfc8 30.Qb5 Ra5)
(14...Nc4 -0.70 (depth 23) 15.Nf4 Qc7 16.g3 Ne5 17.O-O Rd8 18.Nd2 a5 19.bxa5 Rxa5 20.a4 Be7 21.Qe1 g5 22.Ng2 Be6 23.Ne3 Bh3 24.Ndc4 Raa8 25.Ng2 Nd3 26.Bxd3 Rxd3 27.a5 Be6 28.Nge3 Ne4 29.Qe2 Rad8)
If instead 13.f4 exf3 14.Nxf3 Black doesn't even have to move his knight, he can play 14...Re8 when if 15.bxa5 Ba6 and White is in trouble. Again some quick lines from Komodo 9.3 again at depth 23, and it appears 15.0-0 is the only move for him that does not put him seriously behind.
13.f4 exf3 14.Nxf3 Re8
(14...Re8 Komodo 9.2 64-bit -0.17 (depth 23) 15.O-O Qe7 16.Bd3 Nb7 17.Ba6 c5 18.a3 Qc7 19.d4 cxd4 20.cxd4 Nd8 21.Bb5 Re7 22.Qd3 Bb7 23.Nc3 a6 24.Ba4 Bxf3 25.Qxf3 Rc8 26.Bb2 Ne6 27.g3 Nxd4 28.Qd3 Be5 29.Nd5 Nxd5 30.Bxd4 Bxd4+ 31.Qxd4)(14...Re8 -0.93 (depth 23) 15.d3 Nb7 16.O-O a5 17.d4 axb4 18.cxb4 Bxb4 19.Ne5 Qb6 20.Kh1 Nd6 21.Bxh6 Nf5 22.Bf4 Nxd4 23.Bc4 Be6 24.Nd2 Bd5 25.Nb3 Bc3 26.Rc1 Nb5 27.Bxd5 Nxd5 28.Nc4 Qd8 29.Qh5 g6)(14...Re8 -1.34 (depth 23) 15.Kf2 Nb7 16.Rf1 a5 17.d4 axb4 18.Kg1 c5 19.cxb4 cxb4 20.Bb5 Bd7 21.Qd3 Nd5 22.Bc4 Be6 23.Bb5 Re7 24.Kh1 Ra5 25.Bc4 Qc7 26.Re1 Bf5 27.Rxe7 Nxe7 28.Qb3 Nd8)
(14...Re8 -1.43 (depth 23) 15.Kf1 Nb7 16.d4 Nd5 17.Kg1 Bg4 18.a4 Qf6 19.Ra2 Nf4 20.Qf1 c5 21.h3 Be6 22.Rb2 Nxe2+ 23.Rxe2 cxb4 24.cxb4 Rec8 25.Nbd2 Bxb4 26.Bb2 Nd6 27.Ne5 Qxf1+ 28.Nxf1 Bb3 29.Ne3 Bxa4 30.Kh2 Bb5)
Finally the line 13.f4 exf3 14.Nxf3 Re8 15.bxa5 Ba6
(15...Ba6 Komodo 9.2 64-bit -1.83 (depth 23) 16.d3 Bc5 17.c4 Bd4 18.Nxd4 Qxd4 19.Nd2 Qxa1 20.O-O Qxa2 21.Bf3 Qxa5 22.Kh1 Qb6 23.Qa4 Bb7 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Bb2 Qe3 26.Bxf6 Qxd2 27.Qg4 g6 28.Be4 Re6 29.Qf3 Rf8 30.Bd4 Qb4 31.Be3 f5)
(15...Ba6 -3.15 (depth 23) 16.c4 Bxc4 17.d3 Bb4+ 18.Kf1 Ba6 19.a3 Bxa5 20.Bb2 Ng4 21.Bd4 Ne3+ 22.Bxe3 Rxe3 23.Ra2 Qd5 24.Rc2 Bxd3 25.Bxd3 Rxd3 26.Nbd2 Rd8 27.h4 Bxd2 28.Rxd2 Rxf3+ 29.gxf3 Qxd2 30.Qxd2 Rxd2 31.Ke1 Ra2 32.Rf1)
(15...Ba6 -5.57 (depth 23) 16.Nd4 Bc5 17.Rf1 Bxd4 18.d3 Bc5 19.Rf3 Ng4 20.Kd2 Nxh2 21.Kc2 Nxf3 22.gxf3 Qh4 23.Nd2 Bxd3+ 24.Bxd3 Re1 25.Qxe1 Qxe1 26.Bb2 Qf2 27.Rf1 Qh2 28.Re1 Rd8 29.Bc1 Qd6 30.Bc4 Qf4 31.Ne4 Qf5 32.Bd3)
(15...Ba6 -6.86 (depth 23) 16.Ng1 Ne4 17.Nf3 Bxe2 18.Qxe2 Bg3+ 19.Kd1 Nf2+ 20.Qxf2 Bxf2 21.Rf1 Bc5 22.d4 Bd6 23.Nbd2 Qxa5 24.Rb1 Qxa2 25.Ne1 Bxh2 26.Rb3 Reb8 27.Rxb8+ Rxb8 28.Nc2 Re8 29.Rf3 Bd6 30.Re3 Rxe3 31.Nxe3 Qe6 32.Ndc4)
BTW, White doesn't seem to have much other than 13.d4 or 13.f4:
12.b4 Bd6
(12...Bd6 Komodo 9.2 64-bit -0.16 (depth 22) 13.f4 exf3 14.Nxf3 Re8 15.O-O Qe7 16.Bd3 Nb7 17.Bc4 Be6 18.Bxe6 Qxe6 19.Na3 a5 20.b5 Nc5 21.Nd4 Qe5 22.g3 cxb5 23.Naxb5 Nd3 24.Qf3 Ne1 25.Qf5 Bc5 26.Qxe5 Rxe5)
(12...Bd6 -0.41 (depth 22) 13.d4 exd3 14.Nxd3 Nc4 15.O-O a5 16.Bf4 axb4 17.cxb4 Nd5 18.Bxd6 Nxd6 19.a4 Qf6 20.Ra3 Bf5 21.Qb3 Qd4 22.Nd2 Rfe8 23.Bf3 Bxd3 24.Qxd3 Qxb4 25.Bxd5 cxd5 26.Rc1 Qa5)
(12...Bd6 -0.74 (depth 22) 13.Ng4 Nxg4 14.Bxg4 Nc4 15.Bxc8 Qxc8 16.O-O c5 17.Re1 Re8 18.Na3 cxb4 19.Nxc4 Qxc4 20.Bb2 Be5 21.Rb1 bxc3 22.Bxc3 Bxc3 23.dxc3 Qxa2 24.Rb4 f5 25.Qd7 Qf7 26.Rd1 Qxd7 27.Rxd7 Rad8 28.Rbd4 Rxd7)
(12...Bd6 -0.79 (depth 22) 13.Nxf7 Rxf7 14.bxa5 Be6 15.Ba3 Nd5 16.Bxd6 Qxd6 17.c4 Nf4 18.O-O Qd4 19.Nc3 Raf8 20.Qe1 Nxe2+ 21.Nxe2 Qc5 22.Rc1 Bxc4 23.a4 Qd5 24.h3 Rb7 25.Nc3 Qxa5 26.Qxe4 Bxf1 27.Rxf1 Rb2)
Bc5 instead of Bd6 is just to provoke c3, then white cannot use this square for Nb1.
Morevover, White sometimes plays b3-Bb2 too in this variation, no more available here.
So Bc5, and on c3, Bd6 is the common move, tranposing where white gained c3 which is more useful for black in my opinion.
Fiveofswords wrote:
4 ng5 is a good move. moving a piece twice in the opening is often a way to end up behind in development. the exception would be if you are creating a threat which your opponent cannot defend while developing. it is possible often that your opponent ignores the threat and develops anyway which in this case would be the traxler variation...but some investigation of that line shows that it doesnt turn out so well for black if white plays correctly. black can in fact develop and parry the threat on f7 at the cost of a pawn and obtain full compensation which is the main line but this position isnt terrible for white and its perfectly sane for white to play this way. white does obtain issues from lagging in development...that is no myth...but he also obtains tangible profit from his threat.
With accurate play, black either checkmates or perpetual checks white in all lines of the Traxler.
Nov 23, 2015
0
#16
Justs99171 wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:
4 ng5 is a good move. moving a piece twice in the opening is often a way to end up behind in development. the exception would be if you are creating a threat which your opponent cannot defend while developing. it is possible often that your opponent ignores the threat and develops anyway which in this case would be the traxler variation...but some investigation of that line shows that it doesnt turn out so well for black if white plays correctly. black can in fact develop and parry the threat on f7 at the cost of a pawn and obtain full compensation which is the main line but this position isnt terrible for white and its perfectly sane for white to play this way. white does obtain issues from lagging in development...that is no myth...but he also obtains tangible profit from his threat.
With accurate play, black either checkmates or perpetual checks white in all lines of the Traxler.
All lines, that is, except for 5. Bxf7+ -- then Black is just un-castled and down a pawn for no appreciable compensation.
No soup for you! NEXT!
N0S0UP4Y0U wrote:
Justs99171 wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:
4 ng5 is a good move. moving a piece twice in the opening is often a way to end up behind in development. the exception would be if you are creating a threat which your opponent cannot defend while developing. it is possible often that your opponent ignores the threat and develops anyway which in this case would be the traxler variation...but some investigation of that line shows that it doesnt turn out so well for black if white plays correctly. black can in fact develop and parry the threat on f7 at the cost of a pawn and obtain full compensation which is the main line but this position isnt terrible for white and its perfectly sane for white to play this way. white does obtain issues from lagging in development...that is no myth...but he also obtains tangible profit from his threat.
With accurate play, black either checkmates or perpetual checks white in all lines of the Traxler.
All lines, that is, except for 5. Bxf7+ -- then Black is just un-castled and down a pawn for no appreciable compensation.
No soup for you! NEXT!
That's the only line but most people chicken out or take with the knight. I rarely see 5.Bxf7+ ... anyway, black is ok in that line, too.
Nov 23, 2015
0
#18
Justs99171 wrote:
All lines, that is, except for 5. Bxf7+ -- then Black is just un-castled and down a pawn for no appreciable compensation.
No soup for you! NEXT!
That's the only line but most people chicken out or take with the knight. I rarely see 5.Bxf7+ ... anyway, black is ok in that line, too.
If Black was OK in these lines all top GMs would respond to 4.Ng5 with 4...Bc5, but they don't. I'm pretty sure they know something you don't (but think you do).
Nov 23, 2015
0
#19
Lasker1900 wrote:
No grandmaster would ever accept the Black position after 5.Bxf7+. In my database I could only find 13 games in the last 20 years where both players were rated over 2350 FIDE and Black played the Traxler. White achieved a crushing score +9 -1 =3 or 10.5 - 2.5. I don't think Black is OK
I do see that as Black Beliavsky drew Karpov as Black after 4...Bc5 5.Bxf7+ in 1983, and beat Anand after the same sequence in 1991.
Bxf7+ in the Traxler is no fun to play with. I think this gives white better chances. Black may not be completely lost, however, the position is way better for white after Bxf7+. As well, Kf1 after Bxf2+ is better for white as well but this gives white inactive rooks. I would recommend for white in the Traxler to play Bxf7+ and then castle on the king-side foiling black's dirty plot. White should be much better in this line.
Begginers will fall to this trap.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5(bad move) d5! 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.ec6 bc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ng1 Bc5 11.a3 Qd4! 0-1