Wanted: UCO vs Caro-Kann

I will face two archrivals tomorrow. Both of them might throw C-K at me. Do you have any nasty counter measure to suggest?

Ever try this?

http://www.letsplaychess.com/chessclubs/forums_thread_show_one_posteronleftstyle.asp?forumid=6012&ThreadID=5598923

You could always transpose into a KIA.

I always liked this line

Gonnosuke:  there are just too many ways for a C-K player to play boring chess!

There speaks the voice of experience.

I recommend two lines. Take a look. Any questions, just ask me.

I've been a C-K player for a very long time, and I don't think very much of the f3 variation. Black must be careful against some early tactics (Ne5-Nxf7) but it is my experience that Bf5-Bg6 protects against this. This being said, I think that white ends up with a better position, it's just not worth a whole pawn. The thing is, there are several lines in the C-K which give white a (small) edge anyways, so you'd have to compare this line to those lines.

Line 1 (currently discussed line)
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.o-o Nf6 8.Ne5 Bg6 (this is where black should not play Be7 because of Nxf7!)

Line 2 ("normal" edge for white)
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Ng3 e6 7.Bd3 c5 8.o-o cxd4 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Nf3

Line 3 (This is the exchange variation, it is very safe)
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3

Line 4 (This is what I typically play as white, the Panov attack)
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4

There may not be time to learn these lines in detail, but did you think about the Advance Variation?  It leads to very complex positions.

Also you could try the Fantasy Variation (1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 ...) but this could be risky if they are well booked.

The fact is, the Caro Kann is a pretty solid opening for Black!  You just have to play better. 

I would be interested to hear what NM cobblepot thinks about these lines.

Thank you all for "food for thought"! Still a few hours from game time. At least one of my archrivals is far from well read. 

The advance seems very good for white "if they know what they are doing", but all too often just making "normal" moves gives black a French Defense advance variation with no bad bishop, and where tempos don't end up mattering as much since the center is closed.

To be honest, I have never really looked at the fantasy variation in great detail, but it's just unlikely that it poses great problems for black, right?

If I played e4 I would play the advance variation, everything else just seems very very dull. I think it's the most topical line in grandmaster chess these days too.

The tournament I was just at (Western Class Championships) saw quite a few Caro-Kann games, in my own and others. I actually didn't see any advance games whatsoever, but then again there was only 1 GM there!

There were a couple of 4. ...Bf5 games, a couple of 4. ...Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Ng3 games, and a couple isolated queen pawn positions reached via the Nimzo (but which can be also reached from the Caro-Kann Panov attack).

ericmittens, what is the current state of the Caro-Kann advance? Do you have any pointers to some recent thematic games? Which side is winning in the debate?

I never played against the CK in a serious tournament game, only in blitz.  But I think the Advance creates a game where Black is not playing the type of position he really would have liked to play when he went 1...c6.  White has the space advantage, and like NM ozzie says, "if he knows what he's doing..."

I have played the Fantasy a few times in off hand games and Black will get rolled if he isn't careful, but I think a strong player will just take the pawn, then sit back with his weakness free position and laugh at you.   The threats against f7 will only get you so far...

bigdoug: I disagree that black doesn't get the type of position he really would have liked. When black plays the Caro-Kann, he should be entirely prepared for four main types of positions.

Advance
Panov Attack
Main Line with 3.Nc3 dxe4
Exchange variation (exd5 where white doesn't play c4)

If you get into any of these, I just don't think that black has been taken out of their book preparation (assuming that is your goal). If you really want to get black thinking, how about playing the Two Knights line (1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3) or the Fantasy line (already mentioned above), since they occur relatively less often, and probably aren't as theoretically critical as some of the other lines.

I don't like playing against the Caro-kann, and don't like playing against the players of the Caro-kann.  I seek to unsettle them with the following move order:

1 e4  c6

2 d4  d5

3 Nc3 dxe4

4 f3    ....

transposing to some sort of BDG. The gag, it seems to me, is to unsettle the solid Caro-kann player and force them to fight on unfamiliar ground. My OTB using this approach is +1 =1 -0.

I'm sorry if I have duplicated someone else's thoughts (for a while I believed I'd made this move order up! )

Ray, the above posters refer to this as the Milner-Barry variation. I previously only knew the Milner-Barry as an attack against the French Advance involving Bd3 and the sacrifice of the d4 pawn.

What do you have against us Caro-Kann players? I'm personally hurt by your words. :-)

Patrik -- If you want a simple idea to throw Black off his game, try 2. c4. (See Watson on the Caro Kann pg. 251).

If you want inspiration -- see the games of Tal, especially Tal vs. Botvinnik, but Tal's 2 d3 game against Smyslov (Bled 1959) is worth a look as well. (Life and Games of M. Tal -- I think you have it)

Right, I think the state of the theory was "white doesn't get enough compensation for black developing the c8 bishop" for quite a few years. But - Tal v Botvinnik had some games with 3.e5 c5?! 4.dxc5!

Also, my impression is that the critical advance variation in the 80s was with Nc3 and an early g4, whereas now it is the slower variation with Nf3 and Be2. Actually, I think I know who knows the answer about the current state of the advance - the guy I lost a couple of games to on the black side of exactly that Nf3, Be2 variation.

The Fantasy Variation is kind of cool.  I haven't tried it, but it looks very interesting.