"Secrets of the e5 thrust in the Sicilian" by ChessCoach Andras was a very important video for me in understanding the Sicilian. A lot of common beginner mistakes are due to not knowing this one thing. Once you know it, it's actually very simple.
whats the best way to learn the sicilian as a 1100-1200 player?
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It depends on how you learn it but I would agree with Geelse_zot that there is no point in learning long lines at this stage. The more important thing is to understand the opening and the ideas behind it.
It can be helpful to know some tabia positions though. That's to say, they are positions which frequently reoccur.
This is much more simple than learning a long line. Most Sicilian Defences start at move 5. Each variation reaches it's tabia position at around move 10 so it's just 5 + 5 and can be easy to remember.
Many variations begin with the same moves, 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3... and then it branches out.
For example:
Dragon, Yugoslav Attack
Classical, Richter-Rauzer
Najdorf, Main Line
Najdorf, English Attack
Najdorf, Adams Attack
Scheveningen, Classical
Accelerated Dragon, Maroczy Bind
Sveshnikov
These are some very thematic positions in the Sicilian. It's a fascinating opening.
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
MelvinGarvey wrote:
That's childish a way to consider things,
You know what's really childish? Trying to gatekeep the opening choices of people you don't know and discourage them. They obviously have the motivation to want to learn it so why don't you mind your own business?
The reasons don't matter because they were good enough reasons for them to have the desire to. Everyone has different reasons for doing something. It's personal.
Sure, I suppose. However, OP did ask for advice. If someone TWICE YOUR RATING gives advice, even admonishment, it ought to carry a lot of weight. They're also correct. The Sicilian is one of the openings I'd never recommend to a relative beginner (along with QG, Italian, Giuoco Piano English, non-Exchange Spanish, Grunfeld, Nimzo, et cetera). I think there's a time and place to learn these openings and 1100 online blitz is NOT the place to do it. At their rating, the KID via Modern move order or Petrov's or Caro Kann will serve them far better than the whole family of openings that the Sicilian is. If they're dead set on it, I'd recommend them to play 1... g6 and make a repertoire out of c5 and putting the DSB on nontraditional squares (Snake Benoni, Pterodactyl Modern, and Hyperaccelerated Sicilian). Traditional d6 Sicilians and e6 Sicilians are not worth it at 1100 in online blitz. If OP was 1100 FIDE playing classical, I might recommend traditional Sicilians but at this level it isn't even worth learning the basics.
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Sure, I suppose. However, OP did ask for advice. If someone TWICE YOUR RATING gives advice, even admonishment, it ought to carry a lot of weight. They're also correct. The Sicilian is one of the openings I'd never recommend to a relative beginner (along with QG, Italian, Giuoco Piano English, non-Exchange Spanish, Grunfeld, Nimzo, et cetera). I think there's a time and place to learn these openings and 1100 online blitz is NOT the place to do it. At their rating, the KID via Modern move order or Petrov's or Caro Kann will serve them far better than the whole family of openings that the Sicilian is. If they're dead set on it, I'd recommend them to play 1... g6 and make a repertoire out of c5 and putting the DSB on nontraditional squares (Snake Benoni, Pterodactyl Modern, and Hyperaccelerated Sicilian). Traditional d6 Sicilians and e6 Sicilians are not worth it at 1100 in online blitz. If OP was 1100 FIDE playing classical, I might recommend traditional Sicilians but at this level it isn't even worth learning the basics.
The OP asked for advice about how they could best learn the Sicilian. If you re-read the original post they are asking for recommendations for courses or playlists to help them learn.
They did not ask for advice about what opening to play. That's for another thread. OP had to re-state that they had already decided they want to play the Sicilian and were only asking for suggestions about how they could learn it best. Read the earlier comments. So everything you are saying is irrelevant.
Also it doesn't matter what rating someone is. That doesn't mean their advice is good because everyone has different opinions. Besides, it's a personal choice how someone wants to play the game.
You ever heard of being a "backseat gamer"? When someone is trying to play the game and the other person is telling them what to do instead of letting them play it. That's what you're doing.
Also you said A LOT of openings. Like you are saying don't play: The Italian, The Spanish, The Queen's Gambit, English, Nimzo-Indian, Grünfeld, etc. A lot of these are super elementary openings. Even the Italian? That's just being silly. This is the most basic form of developing. Everyone should learn this at the start as it teaches you a lot of basic traps and tactics to be aware of.
In other words only play the openings that you say. This is super patronising. Like you assume that the person is just dumb and has no capacity to learn anything about an opening so they should just play as simple as possible to survive.
Learning an opening can actually help someone improve in the game.
It's best that they pick the opening they want to play, not the opening that YOU want them to play.
It's totally worth it to learn the Sicilian or any other opening if you enjoy learning it. That's the most important thing. It doesn't matter what level you are.
Jan 13, 2023
0
#48
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
wowimplayingchess wrote:
Interesting because I have never tried the french and I am not rly keen on it. I have been using sicilian a bit recently and have been fairing pretty well. When I saw the title had 1100-1200 it kinda hit me close, because the sicilian was never quite difficult to study. I had much more trouble trying to optimize the italian and english. Was defintely confusing when most replies said you dont want to play sicilian at 1100-1200 and many described it to be hard.
I think it was not most replies. It was a few individuals that were being gatekeepers about it.
This is mostly a view promoted by Levy Rozaman (GothamChess) where he tells everyone not to play the Sicilian because it's too complicated and theoretical (apparently). A lot of his viewers copy this view because they don't know any better.
Also there are some people who struggle against the Sicilian so they get salty about it and tell people not to play it. It's pretty funny.
Hey players, the Sicilian leads to sharp lines.
Also, Levy has a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65VWIFlc4C4
It says "Play the sicilian like Beth Harmon" But i still like playing the french variation
Jan 13, 2023
0
#49
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
Noob POV here : The thing I keep in mind presentl -as Gotham Chess loves to tell students - keep it simple.
Well, I played it when I climbed up to 1100 and 1200, and I also play it as a 1300. Whenever A player plays e4, I follow up c5 63 times (out of 63 + 35(e5) + 3(e6) + 1(c6)). 33% White wins and 63% Black (me) wins and 4% draw.
Excellent ! I'm a noob at studying openings so that's why I put the mentions in my replies. But being a geek at "studying how to study" and learning/schematizing concepts, I really enjoy these kins of discussion and pass on quotes and examples. Here it was how I recently had info on that position. But your example is one I'll keep in my. Your line will be one I try, honestly. Thanks for conversing.
Well, I liked the french ( e4 c5 Nf3 (also 2. Nc6 works, because 2.... e6) e6. Threatens d5 and you can try your plan to launch d5.
My database
https://www.chess.com/explorer?moveList=e4+c5&ply=2&gameSource=other&gameType=all&color=black&username=tstutz21
Interesting because I have never tried the french and I am not rly keen on it. I have been using sicilian a bit recently and have been fairing pretty well. When I saw the title had 1100-1200 it kinda hit me close, because the sicilian was never quite difficult to study. I had much more trouble trying to optimize the italian and english. Was defintely confusing when most replies said you dont want to play sicilian at 1100-1200 and many described it to be hard.
Heres some of my other games with sicilian:
Resigned after i was rook and some pawns up ^
He resigned before the mate but even if he saw the mate and stopped it, black (me) was still in a strong position. Most games went like this. Dont have much sicilian on this account but in general I play it often.
Well, in the first game, right when he does 2. Bc4, do e6
tstutz21 wrote:
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
Noob POV here : The thing I keep in mind presentl -as Gotham Chess loves to tell students - keep it simple.
Well, I played it when I climbed up to 1100 and 1200, and I also play it as a 1300. Whenever A player plays e4, I follow up c5 63 times (out of 63 + 35(e5) + 3(e6) + 1(c6)). 33% White wins and 63% Black (me) wins and 4% draw.
Excellent ! I'm a noob at studying openings so that's why I put the mentions in my replies. But being a geek at "studying how to study" and learning/schematizing concepts, I really enjoy these kins of discussion and pass on quotes and examples. Here it was how I recently had info on that position. But your example is one I'll keep in my. Your line will be one I try, honestly. Thanks for conversing.
Well, I liked the french ( e4 c5 Nf3 (also 2. Nc6 works, because 2.... e6) e6. Threatens d5 and you can try your plan to launch d5.
My database
https://www.chess.com/explorer?moveList=e4+c5&ply=2&gameSource=other&gameType=all&color=black&username=tstutz21
Interesting because I have never tried the french and I am not rly keen on it. I have been using sicilian a bit recently and have been fairing pretty well. When I saw the title had 1100-1200 it kinda hit me close, because the sicilian was never quite difficult to study. I had much more trouble trying to optimize the italian and english. Was defintely confusing when most replies said you dont want to play sicilian at 1100-1200 and many described it to be hard.
Heres some of my other games with sicilian:
Resigned after i was rook and some pawns up ^
He resigned before the mate but even if he saw the mate and stopped it, black (me) was still in a strong position. Most games went like this. Dont have much sicilian on this account but in general I play it often.
Well, in the first game, right when he does 2. Bc4, do e6
May I ask why u say that? I would think d5 or Nc6 could be possible good follow ups but is there any major advantage to playing e6 a couple moves earlier?
Jan 13, 2023
0
#51
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
Noob POV here : The thing I keep in mind presentl -as Gotham Chess loves to tell students - keep it simple.
Well, I played it when I climbed up to 1100 and 1200, and I also play it as a 1300. Whenever A player plays e4, I follow up c5 63 times (out of 63 + 35(e5) + 3(e6) + 1(c6)). 33% White wins and 63% Black (me) wins and 4% draw.
Excellent ! I'm a noob at studying openings so that's why I put the mentions in my replies. But being a geek at "studying how to study" and learning/schematizing concepts, I really enjoy these kins of discussion and pass on quotes and examples. Here it was how I recently had info on that position. But your example is one I'll keep in my. Your line will be one I try, honestly. Thanks for conversing.
Well, I liked the french ( e4 c5 Nf3 (also 2. Nc6 works, because 2.... e6) e6. Threatens d5 and you can try your plan to launch d5.
My database
https://www.chess.com/explorer?moveList=e4+c5&ply=2&gameSource=other&gameType=all&color=black&username=tstutz21
Interesting because I have never tried the french and I am not rly keen on it. I have been using sicilian a bit recently and have been fairing pretty well. When I saw the title had 1100-1200 it kinda hit me close, because the sicilian was never quite difficult to study. I had much more trouble trying to optimize the italian and english. Was defintely confusing when most replies said you dont want to play sicilian at 1100-1200 and many described it to be hard.
Heres some of my other games with sicilian:
Resigned after i was rook and some pawns up ^
He resigned before the mate but even if he saw the mate and stopped it, black (me) was still in a strong position. Most games went like this. Dont have much sicilian on this account but in general I play it often.
Well, in the first game, right when he does 2. Bc4, do e6
May I ask why u say that? I would think d5 or Nc6 could be possible good follow ups but is there any major advantage to playing e6 a couple moves earlier?
e6 threatens d5 and it hits the bishop
tstutz21 wrote:
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
wowimplayingchess wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
tstutz21 wrote:
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
Noob POV here : The thing I keep in mind presentl -as Gotham Chess loves to tell students - keep it simple.
Well, I played it when I climbed up to 1100 and 1200, and I also play it as a 1300. Whenever A player plays e4, I follow up c5 63 times (out of 63 + 35(e5) + 3(e6) + 1(c6)). 33% White wins and 63% Black (me) wins and 4% draw.
Excellent ! I'm a noob at studying openings so that's why I put the mentions in my replies. But being a geek at "studying how to study" and learning/schematizing concepts, I really enjoy these kins of discussion and pass on quotes and examples. Here it was how I recently had info on that position. But your example is one I'll keep in my. Your line will be one I try, honestly. Thanks for conversing.
Well, I liked the french ( e4 c5 Nf3 (also 2. Nc6 works, because 2.... e6) e6. Threatens d5 and you can try your plan to launch d5.
My database
https://www.chess.com/explorer?moveList=e4+c5&ply=2&gameSource=other&gameType=all&color=black&username=tstutz21
Interesting because I have never tried the french and I am not rly keen on it. I have been using sicilian a bit recently and have been fairing pretty well. When I saw the title had 1100-1200 it kinda hit me close, because the sicilian was never quite difficult to study. I had much more trouble trying to optimize the italian and english. Was defintely confusing when most replies said you dont want to play sicilian at 1100-1200 and many described it to be hard.
Heres some of my other games with sicilian:
Resigned after i was rook and some pawns up ^
He resigned before the mate but even if he saw the mate and stopped it, black (me) was still in a strong position. Most games went like this. Dont have much sicilian on this account but in general I play it often.
Well, in the first game, right when he does 2. Bc4, do e6
May I ask why u say that? I would think d5 or Nc6 could be possible good follow ups but is there any major advantage to playing e6 a couple moves earlier?
e6 threatens d5 and it hits the bishop
Is immediately threatening d5 that big of a priority, and regarding the bishop a nf6 and d5 push could take care of it, or a more unorthodox a6 and b5?
Against 2. Bc4, e6-d5 is a good plan because it expands in the centre with tempo on the bishop so it achieves both these things.
a6 with the idea of b5 is good but e6 needs to be played first or white has Bd5. Nc6 is good as well and e6 will be played next.
Playing this Kan structure with e6 and a6 is generally the best setup against Bc4. The same against the Smith-Morra and Fischer-Sozin attack but they are more dangerous as white has pressure on the d file. In the Fischer-Sozin Attack white has more ideas with the d4 knight as f4-f5 can be played and also Bxe6 works in some situations.
Ok... but have you considered he is actually a chess coach IRL and knows how it affects the studying patterns and time worth at THAT point in time for a player. Think of that a little bit.
I have not attachment to Levy/Gotham. Only learned of his existence in november 2022... I'm trying to spell out things explained by a 2200+ player's POV using quotes since I am not at this point the one to tell it as it is. Got my 15th Ed. Modern Openings and I'm learning. But heck, you might be better at chess than Levy, who am I to judge or gatekeep?
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
This is mostly a view promoted by Levy Rozaman (GothamChess) . A lot of his viewers copy this view because they don't know any better.
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
Kan structure
Smith-Morra
Fischer-Sozin
Only 3 variations, and more to learn down the line for each of those and their descendent variations, do you see how you give facts of how it is complex to learn it : but with a book and scchema about openings it is easier by a margin. This is why understanding the format of "modern chess openings" and their way of presenting each line makes it simple to see the complexity of those you mention. Just better be dilligent if we plan to study that classic opening. It's like jumping into a Haëndel composition or a deep Bach sheet on your first week at an instrument in the orchestra.
Sicilian Defense (introduction, ideas & variations) - Hanging Pawns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=impkeLfyyVM&t=0s&ab_channel=HangingPawns
Chess Openings: Learn to Play the Sicilian Defense! - The Chess Giant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz6n-GobNXA&ab_channel=TheChessGiant
Sicilian Defense – Choosing the Right Variation for You - Chessable
https://www.chessable.com/blog/sicilian-defense/
The Sicilian Defense - Simplify Chess
https://simplifychess.com/sicilian-defense/index.html
Sicilian Defense - Hanging Pawns
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLssNbVBYrGcDUDYiWilH-mQxXM4ixS2z6
GM Eric Rosen recommends the Sicilian Dragon for Black, as being a beginner 'friendly' variation (solid, but easier to learn than some of the more heavily 'theoretical' Sicilian variations such as the Najdorf). Here (beginning at 3:50 of the video) he does a nice job of explaining the Dragon to one of his students...
Basic Openings for Black | Sicilian Dragon & King's Indian - Eric Rosen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCpeBsjPkC4&ab_channel=EricRosen
Sicilian Dragon - Simplify Chess
https://simplifychess.com/sicilian-dragon/index.html
Chess Openings: Learn to Play the Sicilian Dragon - The Chess Giant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A49atNFFc4A&ab_channel=TheChessGiant
Sicilian Dragon Variation - Parts 1&2 - Hanging Pawns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4_OTquKti0&list=PLssNbVBYrGcDUDYiWilH-mQxXM4ixS2z6&index=13&ab_channel=HangingPawns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up_bhR0McTQ&list=PLssNbVBYrGcDUDYiWilH-mQxXM4ixS2z6&index=14&ab_channel=HangingPawns
Sicilian Dragon - lichess Study
https://lichess.org/study/pTYu8suV
You might also check out the Sicilian - Kan Variation.....also considered to be a beginner 'friendly' Sicilian variation for Black...
https://thechessforum.com/sicilian-kan/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CxgfDX44Ug&ab_channel=HangingPawns
https://lichess.org/study/1D1HCJEb/e61uypkO
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sicilian+kan+variation
ThroughtonsHeirAlexHebert wrote:
Ok... but have you considered he is actually a chess coach IRL
I'm trying to spell out things explained by a 2200+ player's POV
Why you SHOULD play the Sicilian by ChessCoach Andras... an IM and a proper chess coach
Don't waste your time and concentrate on more conservative defenses. Even USCF Experts have trouble playing it.
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
Yyloh wrote:
Heres my answer: don't
Literally no-one asked. Read the OP post. They did not ask you about your opinion on whether or not they should play the sicilian.
I agree: Don't.
adding this update to be clear, im asking if its a good idea to play the silician, ive considered it and thought before posting the original thread and decided it would be a good idea because my opponents wouldnt have any better theoretical knowledge than me which they would need to beat me, im just asking for suggestions of how to start with it.
Play it --why not! It's hel;pful to know a few ideas like:
minority attack on white Qside [see 'Simple Chess']
Pressure on the c file and on c2
The manouver Nc6-a5-c4
The sac R on c8 x N on c3 then N on f6 x e4 pawn
prepare to castle but wait until you ready counter play before actually doing it
When attacked, first look to counterattack then look to defend if there is no counter attack
And it is super helpful, when you lose a game , to look at GM games in the variation where black won and see what they did.
Sicilian leads to a fun and exciting game--not for everyone but it may be for you so try it. -Bill
Bill