whats the most interesting variation of the sicilian?

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Total_Carnage

I would like to learn how to play the Najdorf. In the above examples of Chess games, I noticed the queens were traded off.

Giraffe_Chess

The Najdorf is a very popular choice, but in my opinion the amount of theory is not worth it. The positions are definitely interesting, but some lines (especially in the Bg5 variation) are tough to deal with as Black. I've played the Najdorf, Dragon, Kan, Classical, Taimanov, Four Knights, even the Sicilian Pin Variation, and of all of these, I think the Four Knights Sicilian (e4 c5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Nf6 Nc3 e6) is one of the more interesting ways to sharpen the game as Black. Even when I was around 1900/2000 USCF, playing the Four Knights Sicilian allowed me to oftentimes gain an edge right out of the opening. It's a bit of a sideline, meaning that if you know it better than your opponent, you will almost definitely get an edge. The threat of the Black bishop coming to b4 is often difficult for White players to deal with (beginners and intermediate players will sometimes mistakenly allow Black to play d5 once the Bishop is already on b4, adding significant pressure to the pin. White's best try is Ndb5, after which Black should go for Bc5, the Cobra variation, to spice up the game. I'll include a line below


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Giraffe_Chess
Optimissed wrote:

Basically, I play the O'Kelly with the object of reaching better variations of the pin variation. Committing the b-knight to c6 can be counterproductive. It often wants to go to d7.

That's a good point, but at the same time I think Black really only wants in the knight on d7 in the Scheveningen structures with pawns on e6 and d6. This positions are fine, but can get boring after a while. I think putting the knight on c6 in these e6 Sicilians is the way to go if you want to play actively for d5. The Hedgehog against a good, well-prepared player can definitely be a grind.

If anyone is interested in other chess concepts like this, I also have a YouTube video I recently uploaded in which I talk through my games and explain important chess concepts from the perspective of a Master. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpRYz_ElTJC-FUq4unehOfg

Giraffe_Chess

Interesting approach, but I think we may be talking about two different things. You seem to be talking about a late d5 in the middlegame once all your pieces are fully primed for it. However, sometimes this option is not available if White castles kingside and starts an attack with f4-f5. All I know is I've had a couple bad OTB experiences in those structures, but every person is different. Putting the knight on c6 does help in facilitating an early d5 push (such as in the line I gave in the Four Knights). However, some people like playing the Hedgehog structures (I did too, once) but I felt like I was just getting crushed by IMs and GMs (moreso than I get crushed in the Caro or other Sicilians haha). Also, in many Sicilians, the c6 Knight can be useful to jump to b4 when White castles queenside (an option that's not available in Nd7 lines) and can also jump to e5-c4 (like Nd7 lines). It really does depend on the type of Sicilian, though. If you play e6 systems, the Knight on c6 is comfortable. If you play the Najdorf or Scheveningen, the Knight belongs on d7. Though as chess players, it's tempting to talk abstractly, choices like these truly depend on the position! I do agree that Black achieving d5 in the Sicilian is indicative of their problems being solved. Good point.

pfren
Optimissed έγραψε:

All I can say is that quite often the b8 knight is the last minor piece I develop and when I develop it I think pretty hard. One of my favourite motifs is that if white has played a3, I want to play b7-b5-b4 but I still may not want the c8 bishop on b7. It can be better on d7 sometimes. However, I would need a piece to recapture with on b4. Sometimes that's the B which hopefully is still on f8 but it can be a knight. You're absolutely right about the dangers involved. If white castles long I can usually land the attack first but k-side castling followed by f4 is usually white's only serious means of trying to win and it can be effective. I often try to play f5 against it, which is why I would like the c8 B on d7, to hold e6.

 

You are not playing the O'Kelly.

You are playing the Kan, but you use a move order which gives extra options to your opponent.

If not for anything else, it is not very bright to avoid (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4?! cxd4 4.Nxd4) 4...e5, or 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 e5, which gives Black easy equality, and jump into Kan territory instead.

darkunorthodox88

check out the basman sicilian,some of the lines are just weird as hell.

pfren
Optimissed έγραψε:

Oh by the way, I WANT to give white extra options. You seem to think that "is not very bright" and that everyone must play 6. .... e5. I bet you have hardly played these lines if at all, whereas I've played tens of thousands of 2. ....a6 games. A couple of years ago I was throwing in a few 6. ...e5 games but really, it's positionally unpleasant for black unless white doesn't know what he's doing. Then it's fine but I want winning chances in all my Sicilians. Since I've faced every possibility and there's nothing really scary, why not allow white options that force him to think? At the same time, the playing experience is enhanced for me, rather than travelling down a tedious route after ....e5 where black has to play perfectly just to stay alive? Now, to me, THAT doesn't seem very bright. Thing is, who's brighter, you or I?  

Greetings!

 

After 3.d4?! cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5! Black has a much improved Boleslavski (Najdorf/Sveshnikov) structure, where neither has he to deal with Ndb5, nor worrying about a pawn at d6 which obstructs the f8 bishop.

If it was for 3.d4?!, then every schoolboy and GM, would play the O'Kelly. If you don't get this, I'm afraid I cannot do much.

PawnTsunami
Optimissed wrote:

3. d4 isn't dubious because your preferred line with ...e5 doesn't work. 



It isn't just that.  3. d4?! allows Black to avoid many of the desired Open Sicilian positions.  Which is why those that want to play an Open Sicilian will usually play 3. Nc3!? to force Black to choose which Open Sicilian variation he wants to play before playing d4 (which will transpose into a variety of different lines in many cases).

 

pfren
Optimissed έγραψε:

3. d4 isn't dubious because your preferred line with ...e5 doesn't work. GMs don't play the O'Kelly because for some reason they think they'll never get 3. d4 and maybe they won't, you know, if they all believe the same incorrect stuff about .... e5, until someone comes along and popularises  it, perhaps as a result of the exposure I'm giving it. 

 

The only exposure I can predict from the above is your majesties to public laughter.

dpnorman

2...a6 3. d4 is almost deserving of a question mark, probably ?! but it’s certainly debatable

 

From Optimissed in this thread I have seen no refutation to the pretty much universal knowledge that 5...e5 (and you also keep referring to it as 6...e5 for some reason) totally equalizes. Just words. Haven't even seen any moves lol. And the fact that the positions may be difficult for you to handle doesn't mean they are... sorry sir 

dpnorman

Find an advantage for white. Do it. If you do, you'll achieve something no one else has lol...

Of course black has a backwards d-pawn. He also has that in many mainlines of the Najdorf and Sveshnikov in which he is more than fine. Again, if you can't play those positions personally, that's nothing to do with the objective evaluation of the position

And no, the fact that your opponents also happen to be in the dark doesn't mean it's not very well-known that black is doing well

dpnorman

Food for thought

 

pfren

I have just a couple of games as Black with the O'Kelly. Actually I don't play it, but they both started as 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 a6!

One of them is not worth much (won, but the opponent played like crap), while the other is correspondence against a very strong player (ICCF Senior International Correspondence Chess Master). Black got a very comfortable game with ease - actually that Bc4/Qd3 line, also featured in #154 is white's best chance of avoiding an inferior position.

 

 

Maybe Black could play a little bit more in the final position, but in a correspondence game, chances for White to go wrong in that position are few.

 

Now, eagerly waiting Optimissed to show his authority and refute Black's play...         

PawnTsunami
Optimissed wrote:

PawnTsunami too. I'm honoured and your post is to be taken more seriously, sir. But still, please can you also come up with white's sixth move and black's response?

You write <<Which is why those that want to play an Open Sicilian will usually play 3. Nc3!?>> quite correctly and after 3. Nc3, I would play 3. ...e6. Now we're in a Paulsen formation and if 4. d4 ...cd 5. Nxd4 ...Qc7 6. Nc3 ...Nf6 7. Be2 ...Bb4 8. Qd3 ...Nc6 9. Nxc6 ...bc, which is main line, black has a solid, central pawn mass. I might flirt instead with 7. ...Bc5, which is probably less solid and white might instead play 6.Bd3, which changes the complexion of the opening. Now I wouldn't go 6 ... Nc6 7. Nxc6 ...dc, which is main line, because I don't think black has winning chances. I have a choice of three other moves.

Regarding your first question, I'm assuming you are referring to a line after 3. d4?!, but which line in particular?

sndeww

Personally, I think 2.a3!! gives white excellent chances...

after 1.e4 c5, of course.

sndeww

Joined 52 min ago

Ok, man. I guess you can stay clueless?

dpnorman
Optimissed wrote:

I'm waiting for our "experts" to come up with a line that's better for black in the 5. ...e5 O'Kelly. I have a feeling they can't and they know it, though. They probably think that a line that's better for white will do, except white misplays.

This post amounts to moving the goalposts. If the only good thing about an opening for white is that it isn't clearly "better for black" then that's pretty pathetic imo

Maybe you're a good guy Optimissed but do you really think anyone who reads this thread down the road is going to believe, based on nothing other than stories about how you didn't win from completely equal positions with black against vastly stronger players than yourself in the past, that black's worse in the 3. d4 O'Kelly? This is coming from a fellow who also believes 3. e5 c5 4. dxc5 gives white an advantage in the Advance French...

Now nobody plays Nb3 either (they don't play the line to begin with), but the few who do lose with white almost 60% of the time. After 6...Bb4 it's a Sveshnikov structure with a very active bad bishop. After move 3 black was never even the tiniest bit worse in this game, and her position was also easier to play:

 

dpnorman

The idea that Qd2 is some big mistake is a bit much. I actually agree that since white is the one fighting for equality, they might as well keep the bishop pair, but if your suggested improvement is on move 11, long after it's clear white already isn't doing very well theoretically, I don't think that helps your case too much

Bc4 is just another possibility. Black has a couple paths after 8. Qe2, and on 8. Qd3 it's pretty straightforward

 

 

 

Lion_kingkiller

Well... some of that analysis is just brilliant, yes.

Lion_kingkiller

Interesting is, of course, subjective. But, as a spectator, Najdorf v English Attack... Dragon v Yugoslav Attack... must be hard to beat, for excitement, yes?