ps FirebrandX, the chess game you listed to show Black's best reply to B4 I think is not that impressive. White loses the B pawn in exchange for Black's E pawn! Not good!
I'm afraid your understanding of the game is still in embryonic stage.
I agree, and I would like to add that this is a good example for the general observation that MOST PEOPLE NEVER READ WHAT OTHERS HAVE CONTRIBUTED. In this case, fischerii did not read my several posts on 1.b4 e5.
Frankly, under tournament conditions, my opponents would laugh at me under their breath if I played this opening move.
They can laugh all they want.
Back in 2008, I was 2029. I played 1.b4 in Dallas in all 4 of my White games at the 2008 US Open (Rounds 2, 4, 6, and 8).
My results? 3 1/2 out of 4, smashing an 1800 in round 2, Drawing a 2202 in round 4, destroying an 1865 in round 6, and blowing away a 2173 by achieving a completly winning minor piece ending where Black was forced to resign 10 to 15 moves later.
My Black results were also decent. Won by forfeit round 1, so that didn't count. Drew a 2300 player with a Scandinavian Round 3, blew away this jacka$$ named Jeffrey Haskel in round 7 in what was literally a Reversed French McCutcheon (reached thru the Colle vs Chigorin Defense, 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e5 5.Bb5 e4 6.h3 Bd7 etc) with no gain of tempo for White as he did an early Nbd2, forcing him to play b3, Bb2, Bc3, and b4, where as Black, the pawn moves forward b7-b5 in 1 move. I was low on time in the first time control, made my 40th move, and he literally flicked his king across the board with absolute refusal to sign the Monroi that both players are supposed to sign. What was real funny was I reported they guy, saying that I have only 1 signature because my opponent was being a jerk for losing and wouldn't sign. Guess who was handling the Monrois? My stupid opponent's father of all people! My 2 losses came against an Expert and a 2400, both Black against the English, in rounds 5 and 9.
1.b4 is NOT a bad move!
pfren I am afraid that your study of the b4 opening is not only embryonic itself, it is also non-existent. On the GM level, I think you would find it very difficult if not impossible to find 3. Bxe5 as the normative choice. I would love for you to enlighten me on a GM level game when a notable GM played 3.Bxe5 after 2.....Bxb4. I think you need to go back to your chess studies.
Thank you ThrillerFan for the post on your smashing games with 1. b4 but frankly at the under 1800 tournament rating level I am afraid that anything is possible. I am sure at that rating your opponents had no idea of the opening or how to respond. On the GM level, they would have laughed under their breath, but courteously smiled at your "win". No serious notable GM would play 1.B4 under tournament conditions giving up the center and certainly on GM level 3. Bxe5 is virtually non-exitent!!!
Thank you ThrillerFan for the post on your smashing games with 1. b4 but frankly at the under 1800 tournament rating level I am afraid that anything is possible. I am sure at that rating your opponents had no idea of the opening or how to respond. On the GM level, they would have laughed under their breath, but courteously smiled at your "win". No serious notable GM would play 1.B4 under tournament conditions giving up the center and certainly on GM level 3. Bxe5 is virtually non-exitent!!!
As for the 1800 and 1865, they probably didn't. The 2173 played the line 1.b4 c6 2.Bb2 Qb6 3.a3 a5 4.c4 axb4 5.c5 Qc7 6.axb4 Rxa1 7.Bxa1 line pretty much following book thru the early to mid teens. The 2202 played one of the static ...d5 lines and held his own.
And GMs have played it. See Capablanca, Tartakower, etc.
On the 1. b4 opening where White plays 3. Bxe5 I think there is one win by Hans Larson vs Kosir. Neither of these players were notable. Larson's rating was around 1750. Kosir's record was 4 wins AND 34 LOSES!!!!! I think that pfren, ThrillerFan, Stolenidentity, and Schlecter55 need to go back to chess school.
Frankly, under tournament conditions, my opponents would laugh at me under their breath if I played this opening move.
They can laugh all they want.
Back in 2008, I was 2029. I played 1.b4 in Dallas in all 4 of my White games at the 2008 US Open (Rounds 2, 4, 6, and 8).
My results? 3 1/2 out of 4, smashing an 1800 in round 2, Drawing a 2202 in round 4, destroying an 1865 in round 6, and blowing away a 2173 by achieving a completly winning minor piece ending where Black was forced to resign 10 to 15 moves later.
My Black results were also decent. Won by forfeit round 1, so that didn't count. Drew a 2300 player with a Scandinavian Round 3, blew away this jacka$$ named Jeffrey Haskel in round 7 in what was literally a Reversed French McCutcheon (reached thru the Colle vs Chigorin Defense, 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e5 5.Bb5 e4 6.h3 Bd7 etc) with no gain of tempo for White as he did an early Nbd2, forcing him to play b3, Bb2, Bc3, and b4, where as Black, the pawn moves forward b7-b5 in 1 move. I was low on time in the first time control, made my 40th move, and he literally flicked his king across the board with absolute refusal to sign the Monroi that both players are supposed to sign. What was real funny was I reported they guy, saying that I have only 1 signature because my opponent was being a jerk for losing and wouldn't sign. Guess who was handling the Monrois? My stupid opponent's father of all people! My 2 losses came against an Expert and a 2400, both Black against the English, in rounds 5 and 9.
1.b4 is NOT a bad move!
I'm not sure this is proof of anything :p But an expert having what must have been a 2300-2400 performance is a really good tournament, wow.
On the 1. b4 opening where White plays 3. Bxe5 I think there is one win by Hans Larson vs Kosir. Neither of these players were notable. Larson's rating was around 1750. Kosir's record was 4 wins AND 34 LOSES!!!!! I think that pfren, ThrillerFan, Stolenidentity, and Schlecter55 need to go back to chess school.
Sorry to disappoint you, but nobody gives a damn about your thoughts.
Frankly, under tournament conditions, my opponents would laugh at me under their breath if I played this opening move.
They can laugh all they want.
Back in 2008, I was 2029. I played 1.b4 in Dallas in all 4 of my White games at the 2008 US Open (Rounds 2, 4, 6, and 8).
My results? 3 1/2 out of 4, smashing an 1800 in round 2, Drawing a 2202 in round 4, destroying an 1865 in round 6, and blowing away a 2173 by achieving a completly winning minor piece ending where Black was forced to resign 10 to 15 moves later.
My Black results were also decent. Won by forfeit round 1, so that didn't count. Drew a 2300 player with a Scandinavian Round 3, blew away this jacka$$ named Jeffrey Haskel in round 7 in what was literally a Reversed French McCutcheon (reached thru the Colle vs Chigorin Defense, 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e5 5.Bb5 e4 6.h3 Bd7 etc) with no gain of tempo for White as he did an early Nbd2, forcing him to play b3, Bb2, Bc3, and b4, where as Black, the pawn moves forward b7-b5 in 1 move. I was low on time in the first time control, made my 40th move, and he literally flicked his king across the board with absolute refusal to sign the Monroi that both players are supposed to sign. What was real funny was I reported they guy, saying that I have only 1 signature because my opponent was being a jerk for losing and wouldn't sign. Guess who was handling the Monrois? My stupid opponent's father of all people! My 2 losses came against an Expert and a 2400, both Black against the English, in rounds 5 and 9.
1.b4 is NOT a bad move!
I'm not sure this is proof of anything :p But an expert having what must have been a 2300-2400 performance is a really good tournament, wow.
This definitely was one of my better tournaments, and shot me up from 2029 to 2080, but fell right back down afterwards with some bad results to follow. My "stability point" (what I call the rating you can legitimately maintain at any given time) in 2008 was about 2020. Today it's more like 2070 to 2080. I should hit 2100 very soon.
Everyone will have spikes and valleys. I first hit 2000 in August 2001, but didn't have a stability point of 2000 until about 3 or 4 years later.
On the 1. b4 opening where White plays 3. Bxe5 I think there is one win by Hans Larson vs Kosir. Neither of these players were notable. Larson's rating was around 1750. Kosir's record was 4 wins AND 34 LOSES!!!!! I think that pfren, ThrillerFan, Stolenidentity, and Schlecter55 need to go back to chess school.
you have no rating here, and you ignore all posts. Moreover, after 1.b4 e5, 2.Bb2 Bxb4 you claim that 3.Bxe5 is a bad move (in fact it is the best).
You even do not give an alternative for 3.Bex5.
Note, the sometimes by 'patzers' (=german for weak players) played 3.f4 ?! gives Black a clear advantage after 3....d6, 4.fxe5 dxe5, 5.Bxe5 Nf6. White is weak on the Kingside and down in development.
I challenge you to a Blitz match : 5 games, a 5 minutes.
It is not as bad as it seems....
fischerii is obviously mentally challenged as well as unable to use a database, as a quick search of mine turns up 6 GM games with 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 Bxb4 3.Bxe5 (with GMs as White) in the last 15 years. No other 3rd move has been played at that level.
IM Yury Lapshun did try 3.f4 and won quickly against Raymond Kaufman in 1999 though Kaufman was just an Expert at the time. Kaufman didn't know that 3...exf4 doesn't work.
The principle hinderances on 1.B4 opening are that the natural d2 pawn must still be moved except by the time white moves it Black has formitable center to counter act it, not to mention the lose of tempo by moving b4. Secondly the queen's knight, who natural placement is c3 is not displaced and usually ends up at d2. To further complicate the position, white must somehow struggle to find a tempo to move the c pawn out of the way to allow spacial room for the development of other pieces. All these are usually accomplished by the queen's pawn opening and the favorite choice of Gm's on tournament level.
The most effective line for black in ICCF play:
In the final position, black's pieces are more active and more coordinated than white's. It's no surprise that white has lost almost every game in this line on ICCF, even with computer help.
This seems to assume white doesn't have other resources at his disposal. I am fairly sure he must. I've never played b4 before (hah). I think one person ever has used it against me.
Looks to me like White could potentially play this like an Evans gambit with 2.e4, chasing Black's bishop away with c3 and d4 and getting a developmental advantage and good center control for the wing pawn. Though it doesn't look as good as an Evans gambit. Perhaps White should do something else first. Maybe c3, then Nf3? Bring the Queen out earlier? Not sure.
The most effective line for black in ICCF play:
In the final position, black's pieces are more active and more coordinated than white's. It's no surprise that white has lost almost every game in this line on ICCF, even with computer help.
This seems to assume white doesn't have other resources at his disposal. I am fairly sure he must. I've never played b4 before (hah). I think one person ever has used it against me. That said, of all the wacky offbeat openings involving wing pawns that are out there, this seems to have more potential than the others.
Looks to me like White could potentially play this like an Evans gambit with 2.e4, chasing Black's bishop away with c3 and d4 and getting a developmental advantage and good center control for the wing pawn.
No, there is no other plan. Actually if white omits c2-c4 completely, he may well end in a worse situation.
1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 f6 3.e4 is interesting, since Black has weakened his kingside... but your wannabe- Evans gambit makes no sense at all. Have you realized that white is a whole tempo down compared to the Evans (the bishop gobbled the b4 pawn in one go) and he has no knight on c6 to attack? Also- do you REALLY want to play 2.Bb2 and then follow it with c2-c3 and d2-d4? If you are, then you are a very inventive guy...
Why would you play 2.Bb2?
1.b4 e5 2.e4 Bxb4 3.c3 is the thought we're exploring here.
I know you're being facetious in your usual way; this doesn't look as good as a normal Evans gambit to me--it is merely a thought. Though perhaps there are other moves white could make beyond this point. 3.Nf3 first before flicking the Bishop?
Here is your study material: exactly the same position, with colors reversed. But I don't think you will find any followers of 2...b5.
pfren, if my analysis is accurate and it is, it only shows your lack of class to move to a personal attack by saying "no one gives a ..." about my comments rather than supporting your theory with facts. Usually when someone's analysis fizzles out, and yours did!.. they move to personal comments. I will recomment that NO SERIOUS GM IN HIGH LEVEL TOURNAMENT PLAY seriously considers 1.b4 much less 3.Bxe5.
It is down a tempo, yes. Going back to the White side of the board, unless there is some way of taking advantage of the fact that you haven't committed a bishop to c4, this is worse than an Evans.
Occasionally and very rarely, gambits improve when they're down a tempo (if the tempo is weak and creates counterplay for the defender, for instance). From's Gambit vs the Staunton Gambit comes to mind. This probably isn't one of those cases.
At the amateur level I've noticed White often doesn't know the proper response to 1...c6 and I've gotten them to play 4. c3?! after 2. Bb2 Qb6 3. a3 a5. Instead 4. c4 is correct because of 4...axb4 5. c5 and if 5...Qxc5?? 6. axb4. The position is still perfectably playable for Black though after 5...Qc7.
This line is one of those recommended in Palliser's "Beating Unusual Chess Openings" and has the advantage of potentially surprising the surpriser. However you must also be aware of an interesting gambit with 4. Nc3!? i.e. 4...axb4?! (instead 4....d5 or 4...Nf6) 5. axb4 Rxa1 6. Qxa1 Qxb4 7. Na4 with numerous threats.