Which of the following 3 setups is the best against the London System?

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Avatar of Meet_El_Presidente
A d5 based setup which revolves around c5 and Qb3
 
 
 
 
 
A rather solid KID setup
 
 
 
 
 
A somewhat aggressive and risky KID setup
 
 
Avatar of Ethan_Brollier

All are completely fine, the first is best, but e6 on your first board is ATROCIOUS. Get your LSB out of that pawn chain before e6, because otherwise that bishop will be trapped until. The end of time.

Avatar of chessterd5

Did I miss something in the first diagram? 9. Bd3, c4xd3?

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier
chessterd5 wrote:

Did I miss something in the first diagram? 9. Bd3, c4xd3?

Yeah it’s an accurate board until 9. Bd3?? e6??

Avatar of chessterd5

Bf5 for black before c4 would probably be more accurate. and white doesn't want to trade Queens. once the a8rook opens up on the a file there are tactics against the b2 pawn.

Avatar of Meet_El_Presidente
Ethan_Brollier wrote:

All are completely fine, the first is best, but e6 on your first board is ATROCIOUS. Get your LSB out of that pawn chain before e6, because otherwise that bishop will be trapped until. The end of time.

I just checked the analysis board from where I copied the moves for the first board. It appears there was a MAJOR error while copying it's PGN. I am posting the updated line for the first board below. Apologies for the mistake.

Avatar of Meet_El_Presidente
Avatar of Ethan_Brollier

Much cleaner, thank you for the updated board. Yeah this is my preferred way of playing the London as Black. d5 c5 Nf6 Nc6 Qb6 force you either to trade or retreat your queen or lose the pawn, and then just play a better middlegame with queens off or an even middlegame with queens on, and I have deep pockets for those who actually come prepared with theoretical lines.

Avatar of Meet_El_Presidente
Ethan_Brollier wrote:

Much cleaner, thank you for the updated board. Yeah this is my preferred way of playing the London as Black. d5 c5 Nf6 Nc6 Qb6 force you either to trade or retreat your queen or lose the pawn, and then just play a better middlegame with queens off or an even middlegame with queens on, and I have deep pockets for those who actually come prepared with theoretical lines.

As far as I have learned, it seems that black is commanding the queenside here but the center is somewhat evenly contested. If the queen trade happens, then black will certainly target the backward b pawn but the center can belong to either side I suppose. Should black aim to liquidate this position to an endgame?

P.S- If you don't mind then can I ask you a question regarding middlegames?

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier

Presumably Black could try for an endgame and be okay, but I’d recommend avoiding trades for the time being. Looking more at the position I’d actually have recommended playing h6 rather than Bf5. Since neither rook can attack the b-pawn without giving away equal material, Bf5 now would just get kicked or traded with Nh4, but h6 stops g5 and if… say Bg3 Bf5 Nh4 now Black has Bh7 and that diagonal will be monstrous, and Black comes closer to developing that DSB and castling, developing the other rook into the game.

Yeah, go for it, I’ll answer to the best of my ability.

Avatar of Meet_El_Presidente
Ethan_Brollier wrote:

Presumably Black could try for an endgame and be okay, but I’d recommend avoiding trades for the time being. Looking more at the position I’d actually have recommended playing h6 rather than Bf5. Since neither rook can attack the b-pawn without giving away equal material, Bf5 now would just get kicked or traded with Nh4, but h6 stops g5 and if… say Bg3 Bf5 Nh4 now Black has Bh7 and that diagonal will be monstrous, and Black comes closer to developing that DSB and castling, developing the other rook into the game.

Yeah, go for it, I’ll answer to the best of my ability.

I really dig that Bh7 idea. Rarely do we see black's LSB being so dangerously placed along that diagonal which I presume, nearly gives Black control over the entire b file . Developing and castling as soon as possible so as to double the rooks and infiltrate white's position via the b file would serve black an enormous advantage. After gaining a material advantage, an endgame would be appreciated, maybe if black is able to create a passed pawn (most probably the b pawn if it is not captured) then it is nearly winning.

Regarding middlegames- I am currently reading the book, Logical Chess by Irving Chernev and learning specific middlegame ideas and concepts from Hanging Pawns' youtube playlist. Should I further supplement this by picking up books by John Nunn i.e. Understanding Chess Middlegames and Understanding Chess Move by Move? (I am not playing games nowadays and instead focusing on reading chess books, puzzles and learning really basic endgame concepts). Thanks in advance.

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier

The one thing to watch out for would be a maneuver like Bd1 Bc2, as that counters Black’s monster bishop if White can find another way to defend the c-pawn, or they may even sacrifice it outright with how strong the bishop would end up being throughout the game.

As far as your question goes, you can’t learn middlegames with books as effectively as you can openings and endgames. I’d recommend either playing training games with a sparring partner (to make sure you achieve a normal position out of the opening rather than the nonsense you see online) or using that time to develop your endgame skills more quickly. It isn’t a bad idea at all to supplement your middlegames with literature on the topic but my assumption would be that the fastest and most wholistic way to learn middlegames is to learn them naturally by playing and then have someone (a coach or a stronger player in a club, for example) point out where you struggle and then work on those issues specifically.

Avatar of Mazetoskylo

I like an early ...c5, e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6 followed by ...Bf5. Also 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 is a good way to deal with the other way to play the London, as 3.c4 is not much of a problem after 3...cxd4.

Avatar of PushingThePee

I'm with you, Mazetoskylo, an early c5 is the most annoying move for London players to face. It simply denies them the structure they want if played correctly.

As with most practical openings, the best way to play if you don't want to memorise hundreds of moves is to force your opponent to play a type of game they don't want.

Avatar of Mazetoskylo
Pimander93 wrote:

I'm with you, Mazetoskylo, an early c5 is the most annoying move for London players to face. It simply denies them the structure they want if played correctly.

As with most practical openings, the best way to play if you don't want to memorise hundreds of moves is to force your opponent to play a type of game they don't want.

Basically one does not need to memorize much after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd4 Nc6: It's by transposition a Caro Exchange variation, where white has played the slightly inaccurate Bf4 in place of Bd3, and this allows Black to find a comfortable square for the Bc8.

After that he can complete development and go for the typical minority attack on the queenside, although there is also another very interesting and ambitious plan: Leave for the moment the king on the center and expand on the kingside with ...f6, ...g5, ...h5 etc.

Avatar of PushingThePee

As a Benko/Benoni type player, I play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Qb6. This line scores very well at all levels.

If I hit problems with it, I could transpose to a similar line to yours but have not needed to so far in OTB games.

Avatar of gik-tally

I just stick with the stonewall and a lot of the time londons are clueless against it

Avatar of gik-tally

after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6, my stats are 38:52 stonewalling the zukertort. I won all of my last 5 games