Why is 1...e5 much less popular than 1...c5?

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DiscipleOfKeres

Out of curiosity, I looked through the opening tab of this site. 1...e5 makes up a smaller proportion of all games while 1...c5 makes up a whopping 20% of all games. What gives?

In terms of theory, both of them are relatively equal. They both have safer and sharp lines. Even more interesting is that almost every beginner starts out with 1...e5. Is there really a perception that 1...c5 is more advanced in some way?

Another reason may be that 1...e5 is seen as more drawish because it's easier to get symmetrical positions. What do you think?

Georoni

Well, the Sicilian Defense is known to be complicated with theory because of the number of variations and it's understanding is more tactical compared to positions that start with e5. So, beginners and even some intermediates tend to stick with e5 as it is more principled than moving a flank pawn on the first move.

Georoni

Also, I agree with you. e5 seems to lead to more drawish postions. At that point, it really boils down to who blunders first, and in many games (usually people rated 1100 and below) there will eventually be a blunder by move 15 where they or their opponent can win free material.

DiscipleOfKeres
PastaGeoics wrote:

Well, the Sicilian Defense is known to be complicated with theory because of the number of variations and it's understanding is more tactical compared to positions that start with e5.

I wouldn't say that 1...e5 is any less tactical or has less variations. Romantic era games were often crazy. Here are a few sharp lines:

Giuco Piano main line

Anything in the two knights

Mieses-Meitner gambit

Frankenstein-Dracula variation

Evans gambit

Max Lange

Traxler counterattack

Scotch gambit

Mieses variation in the Scotch

Most lines in the King's gambit

Marshall attack

If everybody plays a quieter d3 or the Petroff, then of course people are going to see 1...e5 as drawish.

aoidaiki
DiscipleOfKeres wrote:
PastaGeoics wrote:

Well, the Sicilian Defense is known to be complicated with theory because of the number of variations and it's understanding is more tactical compared to positions that start with e5.

I wouldn't say that 1...e5 is any less tactical or has less variations. Romantic era games were often crazy. Here are a few sharp lines:

Giuco Piano main line

Anything in the two knights

Mieses-Meitner gambit

Frankenstein-Dracula variation

Evans gambit

Max Lange

Traxler counterattack

Scotch gambit

Mieses variation in the Scotch

Most lines in the King's gambit

Marshall attack

If everybody plays a quieter d3 or the Petroff, then of course people are going to see 1...e5 as drawish.

These are (almost) all choices white makes though. Black can't choose 1...e5 hoping white gives them the kind of game they want.

aoidaiki
DiscipleOfKeres wrote:

Out of curiosity, I looked through the opening tab of this site. 1...e5 makes up a smaller proportion of all games while 1...c5 makes up a whopping 20% of all games. What gives?

I don't know. It's surprising to me too.

Chuck639

Interesting conversation.

I was taught 1.e4, c5 due to my circumstances and don’t  ever regret it one bit….

DiscipleOfKeres
aoidaiki wrote:
 

These are (almost) all choices white makes though. Black can't choose 1...e5 hoping white gives them the kind of game they want.

Well, white can opt for the Alapin or KIA with 1...c5 and that would nip black's opportunity for some excitement.

On the other hand, maybe that is the difference. 1...e5 gives more flexibility to white, while 1...c5 gives more flexibility to black.

magipi

So from the opening post it turns out that 1. - c5 has 20% share, but it isn't clear what e5 has.

Also, are we talking about e4 openings or all? Does 1. d4 c5 or 1. c4 c5 count? Is that 20% figure a proportion to all games (which is unbelievably high) or just after e4?

aoidaiki
magipi wrote:

So from the opening post it turns out that 1. - c5 has 20% share, but it isn't clear what e5 has.

Also, are we talking about e4 openings or all? Does 1. d4 c5 or 1. c4 c5 count? Is that 20% figure a proportion to all games (which is unbelievably high) or just after e4?

You're asking if, after 1.e4, 1...c5 accounts for only 20% of the games? No...

After 1.e4 about 40% of the games are 1...c5 and about 25% are 1...e5 (in the database I happen to be looking).

1...e6 is 13%
1...c6 is 7%

... I'm also surprised there's so much more French than Caro.

 

ssctk

e5 is clearly fantastic, and if sufficiently prepared one can employ a solid, dynamic positional or tactical approach, e.g. throw a Berlin or a Breyer or a Marshall depending on the opponent.

The issue is that this advantage comes at the cost of what's usually 2-3X the size of a Black repertoire, and if one is to adopt a single line e.g. the Breyer, they may as well play a dynamic version of the Caro. The advantages of an 1. ..e5 repertoire are real but to use them one needs a broader repertoire than what a lot of players typically have and maintain.

SamuelAjedrez95

c5 creates an imbalanced, double-edged position which gives black the best winning chances.

e5 is more solid and a better way for black to secure a draw but is not as ambitious as c5.

NumerousBadgers

I usually go with a mix of both in my games - I generally prefer the lines with 1.e4 1.e5, but I don’t hate the Sicilian.

DiscipleOfKeres

#10 and #12 are right that I was looking at master games. For the user population, not so sure 🤔.

joeyhanan

I honestly think the Queen's Gambit Netflix series is a big reason why. In the series that's Beth's signature opening choice with black. Beth's friends in the series make a big point to tell her to "Play the Sicilian", which is in a way them telling her to stay true to who she is. Many beginners are drawn to it because of this in my opinion, when I started playing chess more after watching QG I wanted to play the Sicilian to be like Beth, but soon learned the Caro is way better suited for me.  

aoidaiki
joeyhanan wrote:

I honestly think the Queen's Gambit Netflix series is a big reason why. In the series that's Beth's signature opening choice with black. Beth's friends in the series make a big point to tell her to "Play the Sicilian", which is in a way them telling her to stay true to who she is. Many beginners are drawn to it because of this in my opinion, when I started playing chess more after watching QG I wanted to play the Sicilian to be like Beth, but soon learned the Caro is way better suited for me.  

The large majority of games in all large databases were played before that Netflix series existed.

SamuelAjedrez95
joeyhanan wrote:

I honestly think the Queen's Gambit Netflix series is a big reason why. In the series that's Beth's signature opening choice with black. Beth's friends in the series make a big point to tell her to "Play the Sicilian", which is in a way them telling her to stay true to who she is. Many beginners are drawn to it because of this in my opinion, when I started playing chess more after watching QG I wanted to play the Sicilian to be like Beth, but soon learned the Caro is way better suited for me.  

That's not true at all. The Sicilian became the number 1 choice for professional players way before then. The reason it was featured in the Netflix show is because of it's prior popularity.

The Queen's Gambit Netflix series is not the reason why chess is popular or why people play certain moves. I remember a video where Hikaru mocks FIDE as they want everyone to dress like they're in the Queen's Gambit as they believe that's the sole reason for the chess boom. There are a myriad of different reasons why chess is popular and how different people become interested in chess.

aoidaiki
Dangletown wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
joeyhanan wrote:

I honestly think the Queen's Gambit Netflix series is a big reason why. In the series that's Beth's signature opening choice with black. Beth's friends in the series make a big point to tell her to "Play the Sicilian", which is in a way them telling her to stay true to who she is. Many beginners are drawn to it because of this in my opinion, when I started playing chess more after watching QG I wanted to play the Sicilian to be like Beth, but soon learned the Caro is way better suited for me.  

That's not true at all. The Sicilian became the number 1 choice for professional players way before then. The reason it was featured in the Netflix show is because of it's prior popularity.

The Queen's Gambit Netflix series is not the reason why chess is popular or why people play certain moves. I remember a video where Hikaru mocks FIDE as they want everyone to dress like they're in the Queen's Gambit as they believe that's the sole reason for the chess boom. There are a myriad of different reasons why chess is popular and how different people become interested in chess.

 

I would hazard a guess that the chess boom has almost entirely nothing to do with that show. It has more to do with content creators, especially Hikaru, making chess more accessible and cool as well as the Hans anal bead meme.

The show (and COVID lockdowns) created a chess boom.

The cause for the more recent boom is harder to pinpoint, and is probably a combination of many things, streamers / content creators being one factor.

aoidaiki
Dangletown wrote:
aoidaiki wrote:
Dangletown wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
joeyhanan wrote:

I honestly think the Queen's Gambit Netflix series is a big reason why. In the series that's Beth's signature opening choice with black. Beth's friends in the series make a big point to tell her to "Play the Sicilian", which is in a way them telling her to stay true to who she is. Many beginners are drawn to it because of this in my opinion, when I started playing chess more after watching QG I wanted to play the Sicilian to be like Beth, but soon learned the Caro is way better suited for me.  

That's not true at all. The Sicilian became the number 1 choice for professional players way before then. The reason it was featured in the Netflix show is because of it's prior popularity.

The Queen's Gambit Netflix series is not the reason why chess is popular or why people play certain moves. I remember a video where Hikaru mocks FIDE as they want everyone to dress like they're in the Queen's Gambit as they believe that's the sole reason for the chess boom. There are a myriad of different reasons why chess is popular and how different people become interested in chess.

 

I would hazard a guess that the chess boom has almost entirely nothing to do with that show. It has more to do with content creators, especially Hikaru, making chess more accessible and cool as well as the Hans anal bead meme.

The show (and COVID lockdowns) created a chess boom.

The cause for the more recent boom is harder to pinpoint, and is probably a combination of many things, streamers / content creators being one factor.

 

I don't think so. I think the show was popular because of chess becoming more popular. Mega popular twitch streamers had all starting playing chess on stream leading to the pog champs which happened well before The Queen's Gambit aired at the tail end of 2020.

Here are contemporaneous blogs by the site's owner about the boom caused by COVID and then the boom caused by Queen's Gambit.

 

Chess.com during this global stay home moment

Incredible second wave of interest in chess

aoidaiki
Dangletown wrote:

It specifically says a combination of Covid, The Queen's Gambit and Twitch. However, the popularity of chess rose on twitch well before The Queen's Gambit aired on Netflix.

 

If you look at the graph, the first increase starts in March when large streamers started playing chess and it has another hitch in May which is when pog champs started. The biggest increase in the graph does coincide with The Queen's Gambit but that was also the end of Pog Champs 2. The show obviously helps cause a larger increase but I think it definitely isn't as popular without the interest that had already been gaining before it aired.

Finally, I'm pretty sure the chess boom being discussed in this thread is the most recent one which was written about in the link below.

Chess Is Booming! And Our Servers Are Struggling. - Chess.com

Yep.