Bobby Fischer

Bobby should have re-located to Cuba. The jews were able to slowly poison his food supply.I'd look carefully at his close aides and there needs to be an autopsy post haste. This could not have happen to him here where all life is loved and respected. America should be condemned for its crimes against Fischer. I hope and pray that Bobby is able to strike those who harmed him from the other side.

The communist anti-Semite (redundant) who is jealous of the world due to his confinement in a country that has a defense force to keep its population inside, wants to get off (not the island) by telling us that Icelanders are anti-Fischer Jewish conspirators. Another example of a failed medical system.

GreenLaser wrote: The communist anti-Semite (redundant) who is jealous of the world due to his confinement in a country that has a defense force to keep its population inside, wants to get off (not the island) by telling us that Icelanders are anti-Fischer Jewish conspirators. Another example of a failed medical system.

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I like the aforementioned post about as much as you do, but there's nothing inherently antisemitic in communism. Particular governments have persecuted Jews in the name of communism (or socialism labeled as communism), but the two issues aren't directly linked.

Uh........isnt this thread branching off into the political realm?  Is that allowed? As for Fischers parents both being jewish they were awful parents! I think his mother abandoning him and having a father that he didnt even seem to know (his father also apparently abandoned him) certainly didnt help Fischer to be a "normal" person. His mother, from all I have read about her, was a bit on the crazy side herself. I think Fischer's childhood would have warped pretty much anyone. It seems to me that chess was the only thing in his life he could rely on, as in chess he relied only on himself. Fischer was also always painted as a "bad boy" even when he was not. The aborted match with Reshevsky is a good example.

HowDoesTheHorseMove said, "there's nothing inherently antisemitic in communism." The statements and practices of communists including Marx, Stalin, Castro, and others were specifically anti-Semitic. Aside from their personal prejudices, communist ideas oppose any group that they can label the enemy based on nationalism, religion, or socio-economic class. Since Marx founded the unscientific so-called scientific socialism his views are rather inherent to its theory and practice. Stalin was preparing to massively increase his murders of Jews before he died. Communists prefer Jews to die at the hands of Nazis so they can criticize Nazis, but have no use for Jews who defend themselves.

Reb said, "isnt this thread branching off into the political realm?" and "having a father that he didnt even seem to know." Yes, politics has intruded by way of gratuitous bigotry. Discussing Fischer's views may be part of chess news, but the thread has gone beyond that. Fischer was aware of his biological father who lived in South America. There may be disagreement about what he knew, but money was sought from that source.

GreenLaser wrote:

HowDoesTheHorseMove said, "there's nothing inherently antisemitic in communism." The statements and practices of communists including Marx, Stalin, Castro, and others were specifically anti-Semitic. Aside from their personal prejudices, communist ideas oppose any group that they can label the enemy based on nationalism, religion, or socio-economic class. Since Marx founded the unscientific so-called scientific socialism his views are rather inherent to its theory and practice. Stalin was preparing to massively increase his murders of Jews before he died. Communists prefer Jews to die at the hands of Nazis so they can criticize Nazis, but have no use for Jews who defend themselves.

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You've succeeded in demonstrating that there have been a bunch of communists and socialists who didn't like Jews, while ignoring the role played by Jews in the formation of European and American labor movements. I stand by my contention that communism is not inherently biased against any particular ethnicity or nationality, though I accept that it may be used as an excuse for acting upon existing hatreds.

The role of Jews in labor movements does not clear communists of anti-Semitism. In Europe labor has been more ideological. In America, successful unions were not, preferring bread and butter issues. American labor leaders such as Hillman and Reuther had to fight to keep organized crime and communists out. Communism is biased against nationalism in toto. Specific groups always become the targets.

GreenLaser wrote: The role of Jews in labor movements does not clear communists of anti-Semitism. In Europe labor has been more ideological. In America, successful unions were not, preferring bread and butter issues. American labor leaders such as Hillman and Reuther had to fight to keep organized crime and communists out. Communism is biased against nationalism in toto. Specific groups always become the targets.

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A communist bias against nationalism (which exists on paper but rarely in reality) does not antisemitism make. Antisemitism is not an opposition to Jewish nationalism, but an opposition to Jews.

 

I think you're confusing theory with application. Most communist governments with which Westerners are aware have been born of societies with long-standing biases against Jews. Naturally when those governments sought a common enemy to unite the people, the Jew was a popular choice. (But by no means were Jews the universal or automatic choice. There was a time when Yiddish language Communist newspapers were published within the Soviet Union.) China is the most obvious counterexample: Jewish friends who have lived there tell me that China has no notable history of antisemitism, despite a small but constant Jewish presence there since the Tang Dynasty.

I like Tang. All kinds. However, to disguise an outright effort by socialist and communist nations of the past that wanted to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth is absurd. You can't change history. Dictatorships, communism and socialists are all that ever attacked Jews.

 

 

ChessDweeb wrote:

Dictatorships, communism and socialists are all that ever attacked Jews. 

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What about spontaneous riots and pogroms? What about the medieval Catholic Church? Are you seriously arguing that there was no antisemitism before Marx?

 

By the way, I'm only aware of one attempt by a socialist government to wipe out all Jews (the obvious one). Can you name another?

HowDoesTheHorseMove said,"I think you're confusing theory with application. Most communist governments with which Westerners are aware have been born of societies with long-standing biases against Jews....Are you seriously arguing that there was no antisemitism before Marx?" Theory and practice can't be separated unless you want to call Lenin a non-Communist for turning Marx's theory of economic determinism on its head with the practice political determinism. Then you want to absolve communist anti-Semites of anti-Semitism because they were already anti-Semites before they were communists. Jews in China, leaving aside those who were there briefly after escaping from the Nazis through the USSR, exist in the memories of those Chinese who descended from Jews who lived there a long time ago. Of course anti-Semitism existed before Marx. Nobody said otherwise. Notice in today's world, the alliance of the extreme left and right as anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers.

I'll have to answer this in pieces.

 

Theory and practice can't be separated unless you want to call Lenin a non-Communist for turning Marx's theory of economic determinism on its head with the practice political determinism.

 

I wouldn't call Lenin a non-Communist, though I would call him a non-Marxist.

 

Then you want to absolve communist anti-Semites of anti-Semitism because they were already anti-Semites before they were communists.

 

No, I want to absolve communism of antisemitism. You said it yourself: their bigotry predates their political views. How can the former be blamed on the latter?

 

Jews in China, leaving aside those who were there briefly after escaping from the Nazis through the USSR, exist in the memories of those Chinese who descended from Jews who lived there a long time ago.

 

There was a self-identifying Jewish community in Kaifeng as recently as the early 20th Century. My friends who have lived in China, some of whom are visibly Jewish due to their manner of dress, reported no special hostility toward them whatsoever.

 

Of course anti-Semitism existed before Marx. Nobody said otherwise.

 

That wasn't directed at you, but at another poster. ChessDweeb did in fact make that claim.

 Notice in today's world, the alliance of the extreme left and right as anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers.

 

I'm not sure where this comes from, or what it has to do with our conversation. 

"I wouldn't call Lenin a non-Communist, though I would call him a non-Marxist." Yes, pretend you know what I am talking about so that you will seem to know what one of us is saying. You are making a distinction without a difference to give communism an escape square.

"No, I want to absolve communism of antisemitism. You said it yourself: their bigotry predates their political views. How can the former be blamed on the latter?" Promoting anti-Semitism when done by communists cannot absolve communism of anti-Semitism. Just another escape square. People today deserve credit or blame for what they do even if it is not totally original. That credit or blame includes, not excludes, their beliefs especially when what they do is policy dictated by belief. Linking recognizing one socialist government to the practice of "wiping out all Jews" trivializes other anti-Semitic communist practices. Another escape square for such practices.

"as recently as the early 20th Century... manner of dress" This is not recent and dress is not religious practice when all people have is vague memory without ritual practices and days.

"I'm not sure where this comes from, or what it has to do with our conversation." I did not limit anti-Semitism to the left, but linked it to the left due to the early anti-Semitic post and its source. The remark shows that.

Werent there communist jews? Has none here ever heard of Gengrik Yagoda? Isnt there a communist party in Israel today and arent communist jews from eastern europe welcomed to Israel today ? Was Stalin anti-semitic? Also.......arent we straying into forbidden territory here ?

Reb wrote: Werent there communist jews? Has none here ever heard of Gengrik Yagoda? Isnt there a communist party in Israel today and arent communist jews from eastern europe welcomed to Israel today ? Was Stalin anti-semitic? Also.......arent we straying into forbidden territory here ?

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Stalin was antisemitic, but the other stuff you mentioned is true.

 

Depends on how you read what's forbidden, and how you read the conversation. We're not actually discussing religion, but rather someone else's reaction to an enthnic group that has an attached religious identity. Politics? Maybe. 

Yes, pretend you know what I am talking about so that you will seem to know what one of us is saying.

Marxism is not synonymous with communism; it is one idealogical form of communism. The condescention here is disappointing, as is the assumption about my understanding. I'm not interested in continuing this conversation if you can't be more mature about it.

Didnt Stalin marry one or more jewish women? I think he had 3 or 4 wives. Alekhine also married a Jewish woman and is said to have been anti-semitic. There is something wrong with this picture.

Reb wrote: Didnt Stalin marry one or more jewish women? I think he had 3 or 4 wives. Alekhine also married a Jewish woman and is said to have been anti-semitic. There is something wrong with this picture.

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I don't have any info on Stalin's wives, though I do know that he has a grandson who is a practicing Jew. (Someone I know met him.)

 

The thing with Alekhine isn't quite as weird as it sounds. For all his trash talk about the Jews, Bobby Fischer (the original topic of this post, after all) didn't seem to mind hanging around with the Polgars. Richard Wagner had a similar contradiction: he wrote all sorts of hateful invective about how Jews were ruining his country and its culture, but — cliché alert — some of his best friends were Jews. One was a pallbearer at his funeral.

Reb, Stalin and Alekhine are not comparable. Marx wrote about communism. Separating the two is a shell game to escape blame. Marx wanted Jews to not exist as Jews, just as he existed. Communist Jews want the same thing. They are usually internationalists. George Soros was born Jewish and escaped the Holocaust as a teenager who aided a Nazi. He admired the power of the Soviet Union after the war. He is not a communist, but he wants power and is an anti-Semite. Just as Jews can be communists, Jews can be anti-Semites. Remember genocides involve the mass murder of one group by another. There can also be autogenocides, the mass murder of a group by the same group. This is what happened in Cambodia. Communism, like Nazism, demands human sacrifice and must fail because it is against the individual and human nature. This is why it cannot be productive. Yet, its failure is always denied and blamed on the wrong leader ruling.

I read once that fascism is national socialism and that communism is international socialism . History tells me that the communist regimes have been just as murderous as the nazis were but communists do not receive near the same condemnation as nazis do. Why ?  I have also read that history is a pack of lies agreed upon..the older I get the more I tend to believe this. Those who write history are always the winners of wars, I dont trust them to be without bias and always truthful, should anyone?