OP might be right. My dog wins against me about the same percentage whether it's tic tac toe or chess.
Chess is Tic -Tac- Toe
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Feb 25, 2013
0
#44
Regarding ultra-intelligent life here or elsewhere, it might be interesting to consider how much its development depends on the environment. Here on Earth we have (had) vast resources such as coal, oil, iron, gold, lead, etc. right near the surface of the earth. As we developed our technology up from sticks and rocks, we found thousands of resources ready to hand that we could employ to go further and further.
Posit a planet with virtually none of these resources at the surface--no heavy metals of any kind, just wood and stone. No matter how brilliant the inhabitants (more on that in a second), they'd never be able to progress beyond a neolithic "technology."
Yet some studies are now suggesting that our species intelligence may have peaked at the time of latter day Cro-Magnons, a time when tremendous mental agility to cope with a dangerous environment was essential. Today, though our technology is unimaginably further advanced than in ancient times, we mostly live in evnironments that are so bland, predictable, micro-managed and safe that the genius of the early species is no longer an advantage.
Today--instead of producing stone tools, cave paintings, fire, cooked food, culture, religion, and civilization--we are mere passive recipients of already packaged food, shelter, "entertainment," and opinions.
So who's smarter?
ClavierCavalier wrote:
Ubik42 wrote:
There were several start trek episodes with that theme, in addition to the faux organian one.
"this side of paradise" - a planet where you are taken over by alien spores and just want to farm and stuff.
I cant rememeber the name of another one, but the "diety" was Val or Vol and his human worshippers didnt want to do anything but bring him apples and stuff.
Then there was the one with the "will of Landru", run by a computer, where no one had much curiosity or anything, they just followed the will of Landru, which was a big computer (that Kirk, typically, talks into blowing itself up )
I am sure there were others with that theme. Oh yeah, the one where the home civ copied a book they got from us about 1920 Al Capone gangsters. Probably more. Oh and the "Gamesters of Triskelion". Ok, actually, almost every trek episode had this theme.
If you're talking about the theme of ultra intelligent aliens, then yes, most old Trek is about this. If you're talking about the idea of an ultra intelligent life form that doesn't care to progress, then I can't think of a single episode of old Trek or TNG. The rest of it I've only watched scattered episodes here and there, so I don't know.
Well, there was that trek TOS with the alien intelligences that locked themselves up into little spheres for thousands of years. They werent doing much advancing. I think they were afraid of blowing themselves up. Sargon was the name of the main character, and also the name of one of the first commercial chess programs, which I played back in the 80's.
Also, the "gamesters of triskelion", not only were the thralls not advancing, but neither was the super advanced alien intelligences advancing anymore either, all they did all day long was sit around and bet on the games with quatloos as the currency.
MSteen wrote:
Regarding ultra-intelligent life here or elsewhere, it might be interesting to consider how much its development depends on the environment. Here on Earth we have (had) vast resources such as coal, oil, iron, gold, lead, etc. right near the surface of the earth. As we developed our technology up from sticks and rocks, we found thousands of resources ready to hand that we could employ to go further and further.
Posit a planet with virtually none of these resources at the surface--no heavy metals of any kind, just wood and stone. No matter how brilliant the inhabitants (more on that in a second), they'd never be able to progress beyond a neolithic "technology."
Yet some studies are now suggesting that our species intelligence may have peaked at the time of latter day Cro-Magnons, a time when tremendous mental agility to cope with a dangerous environment was essential. Today, though our technology is unimaginably further advanced than in ancient times, we mostly live in evnironments that are so bland, predictable, micro-managed and safe that the genius of the early species is no longer an advantage.
Today--instead of producing stone tools, cave paintings, fire, cooked food, culture, religion, and civilization--we are mere passive recipients of already packaged food, shelter, "entertainment," and opinions.
So who's smarter?
Interesting discussion, but I think you're wrong.
Before technology the primitive humans had only to make few choices, almost all of them based on a binary approach. The famous flight of fight. Interestingly, this primitive way of thinking still tends to resist to this day, as many people (especially less intelligent people) tend to polarize themselves to the extreme. Think of any political ideology and you'll find that the 99% think that it's either 1) the only great one or 2) total idiocy.
Anyway, in our society we are faced with many more complex decision. Only buying groceries requires us to make calculations, to predict what we'll need for the week, to get a special offer, etc. Or using a computer or reading a novel is much more complicated than any decision a primitive man might ever had to face. This is not even taking into account the decisions that people have to do at work.
I totally agree with your first point though, a planet without enough relevant resources would have completely stopped evolution. Only thing, you mention gold but gold it's pretty much the most useless stuff on earth.
ClavierCavalier wrote:
Why do people always assume that if there is other intelligent life in the universe it must be superior?
There is other intelligent life in the universe (albeit, still here on earth), and in some ways it is.
KEBEK43 wrote:
Last night I met " Khar Khar" on Jupiter and I saw him making a UFO...,Whith ivory tubes and salt. A chess baord was on a table but a white king was missing.
Jupiter is a gas planet, you can't land on it.
Yes, that's where the plausibility breaks down.
waffllemaster wrote:
Cheesy enough to be worthy of a twilight zone episode.
I'd find it more interesting if they were highly intelligent, but their thought processes were so different that things like chess and basic math very difficult. But at the same time they excelled at solving problems we find highly difficult.
So they'd have equations and interstellar travel and all that, but they arrived at their answers in a way completely novel to us. That would be interesting.
Wafflew; "if lions could talk, we would nortbe able to understand them"; L. Wittgenstein dixit.
Feb 25, 2013
0
#51
Interesting discussion, but I think you're wrong.
Before technology the primitive humans had only to make few choices, almost all of them based on a binary approach. The famous flight of fight. Interestingly, this primitive way of thinking still tends to resist to this day, as many people (especially less intelligent people) tend to polarize themselves to the extreme. Think of any political ideology and you'll find that the 99% think that it's either 1) the only great one or 2) total idiocy.
Anyway, in our society we are faced with many more complex decision. Only buying groceries requires us to make calculations, to predict what we'll need for the week, to get a special offer, etc. Or using a computer or reading a novel is much more complicated than any decision a primitive man might ever had to face. This is not even taking into account the decisions that people have to do at work.
I totally agree with your first point though, a planet without enough relevant resources would have completely stopped evolution. Only thing, you mention gold but gold it's pretty much the most useless stuff on earth.
So based on your last paragraph, you don't think I'm TOTALLY wrong, just mostly. Thanks at least for that.
But when you discuss the relatively "simple" choices that early humans had to make, you assume that survival in a hostile world with absolutely NOTHING already prepared for you involves merely binary choices. But primitive man had to be intimately familiar with his environment--which plants were edible, poisonous, medicinal; where to find clean water and salt; how to read the seasons so as to be prepared for migrations and changing flora; which rocks made the best spearheads and axes, and how to use harder rocks and antlers to fashion them into weapons and tools. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been merely to make it to young adulthood, so say nothing of old (40) age.
And as long as I'm riffing here, I imagine that primitive humans were MUCH hardier physically than we are. Any birth defect at all, that we routinely fix with early surgery, would instantly remove you from the gene pool. Not immune to disease? Goodbye. Got poor eyesight? The lions, snakes, and scorpions are going to love you.
Of course it's impossible to say, 40,000 years later, what the TRUTH is. We could debate this endlessly (but entertainingly). I think, though, that our early ancestors could give us a run for our money in both body and brains.
As for gold--I agree with you there. It's useless until you develop REALLY advanced technology. Makes a pretty poor axe, though.
Feb 25, 2013
0
#52
MSteen wrote:
Regarding ultra-intelligent life here or elsewhere, it might be interesting to consider how much its development depends on the environment. Here on Earth we have (had) vast resources such as coal, oil, iron, gold, lead, etc. right near the surface of the earth. As we developed our technology up from sticks and rocks, we found thousands of resources ready to hand that we could employ to go further and further.
Posit a planet with virtually none of these resources at the surface--no heavy metals of any kind, just wood and stone. No matter how brilliant the inhabitants (more on that in a second), they'd never be able to progress beyond a neolithic "technology."
Yet some studies are now suggesting that our species intelligence may have peaked at the time of latter day Cro-Magnons, a time when tremendous mental agility to cope with a dangerous environment was essential. Today, though our technology is unimaginably further advanced than in ancient times, we mostly live in evnironments that are so bland, predictable, micro-managed and safe that the genius of the early species is no longer an advantage.
Today--instead of producing stone tools, cave paintings, fire, cooked food, culture, religion, and civilization--we are mere passive recipients of already packaged food, shelter, "entertainment," and opinions.
So who's smarter?
One hole in this seems to be the argument that we became smarter as our technology advanced but we were more intelligent during the cro magnon stage of evolution. Another problem with this is that a species is believed to generally become stronger with evolution, and our main strength is our intelligence. Also, what about that stuff about the aliens? You said "more on that later" but left us wiht a cliffhanger!
Feb 25, 2013
0
#53
Ubik42 wrote:
ClavierCavalier wrote:
Ubik42 wrote:
There were several start trek episodes with that theme, in addition to the faux organian one.
"this side of paradise" - a planet where you are taken over by alien spores and just want to farm and stuff.
I cant rememeber the name of another one, but the "diety" was Val or Vol and his human worshippers didnt want to do anything but bring him apples and stuff.
Then there was the one with the "will of Landru", run by a computer, where no one had much curiosity or anything, they just followed the will of Landru, which was a big computer (that Kirk, typically, talks into blowing itself up )
I am sure there were others with that theme. Oh yeah, the one where the home civ copied a book they got from us about 1920 Al Capone gangsters. Probably more. Oh and the "Gamesters of Triskelion". Ok, actually, almost every trek episode had this theme.
If you're talking about the theme of ultra intelligent aliens, then yes, most old Trek is about this. If you're talking about the idea of an ultra intelligent life form that doesn't care to progress, then I can't think of a single episode of old Trek or TNG. The rest of it I've only watched scattered episodes here and there, so I don't know.
Well, there was that trek TOS with the alien intelligences that locked themselves up into little spheres for thousands of years. They werent doing much advancing. I think they were afraid of blowing themselves up. Sargon was the name of the main character, and also the name of one of the first commercial chess programs, which I played back in the 80's.
Also, the "gamesters of triskelion", not only were the thralls not advancing, but neither was the super advanced alien intelligences advancing anymore either, all they did all day long was sit around and bet on the games with quatloos as the currency.
No, I'm pretty sure the main character was Kirk, or possibly Spock. Alright, their bodies were inhabited by some alien creatures... They reached a point of evolution that meant they no longer required technological advancement due to their god-like powers. They were also stuck in those spheres due to some war devastating their planet. Can't blame them. Well, one could...
The gamesters' race as a hole was very advanced and advanced through the ages. For whatever reason there were just 3 left, stuck as brains in a jar. If our civilization was wiped out and you had Carlsen, Fischer, and Kasparov stuck in a room, they'd play chess. Oh, and the thralls were slaves. Generally, one doesn't want their slaves to advance. It wasn't until Kirk won the bet that they agreed to start educating the slaves.
ClavierCavalier wrote:
Ubik42 wrote:
ClavierCavalier wrote:
Ubik42 wrote:
There were several start trek episodes with that theme, in addition to the faux organian one.
"this side of paradise" - a planet where you are taken over by alien spores and just want to farm and stuff.
I cant rememeber the name of another one, but the "diety" was Val or Vol and his human worshippers didnt want to do anything but bring him apples and stuff.
Then there was the one with the "will of Landru", run by a computer, where no one had much curiosity or anything, they just followed the will of Landru, which was a big computer (that Kirk, typically, talks into blowing itself up )
I am sure there were others with that theme. Oh yeah, the one where the home civ copied a book they got from us about 1920 Al Capone gangsters. Probably more. Oh and the "Gamesters of Triskelion". Ok, actually, almost every trek episode had this theme.
If you're talking about the theme of ultra intelligent aliens, then yes, most old Trek is about this. If you're talking about the idea of an ultra intelligent life form that doesn't care to progress, then I can't think of a single episode of old Trek or TNG. The rest of it I've only watched scattered episodes here and there, so I don't know.
Well, there was that trek TOS with the alien intelligences that locked themselves up into little spheres for thousands of years. They werent doing much advancing. I think they were afraid of blowing themselves up. Sargon was the name of the main character, and also the name of one of the first commercial chess programs, which I played back in the 80's.
Also, the "gamesters of triskelion", not only were the thralls not advancing, but neither was the super advanced alien intelligences advancing anymore either, all they did all day long was sit around and bet on the games with quatloos as the currency.
No, I'm pretty sure the main character was Kirk, or possibly Spock. Alright, their bodies were inhabited by some alien creatures... They reached a point of evolution that meant they no longer required technological advancement due to their god-like powers. They were also stuck in those spheres due to some war devastating their planet. Can't blame them. Well, one could...
The gamesters' race as a hole was very advanced and advanced through the ages. For whatever reason there were just 3 left, stuck as brains in a jar. If our civilization was wiped out and you had Carlsen, Fischer, and Kasparov stuck in a room, they'd play chess. Oh, and the thralls were slaves. Generally, one doesn't want their slaves to advance. It wasn't until Kirk won the bet that they agreed to start educating the slaves.
Kirk and Spock spent the bulk of that episode in a jar. Sargon did a great acting job with Kirk, though he seemed to overact at times.
omg my sides
OP cant be serious, if so it is probably the most stupid thing i have ever read.
Saying that this can't be true is as much of a leap of faith as saying it must be true.