Well, it is OK to wait reports from others or to start examining some people when certain red flags are raised. It is too expensive to analize with an engine all the games played on the site.
But it would be helpful to know when to suspect cheating. After all, you don't want everybody to report everybody. I also remember that I reported a person and you found out that he was a super-GM who wants to remain anonymous.
Where everybody can contribute is by reporting when your opponent seems to be playing "not like a human". I would leave the detailed analysis to the excellent chess.com anti-cheating methodologies, but one thing that they don't have enough of is eyeballs on the games. So if it's your game, or in your tournament, or if you just happen to be browsing some game, and if you suspect something, then report it.
JOHN RAMBO PLAYS CHESS TOO
A better choice would be a basketball game. The ball players will try to point out to the refs that their opponent is cheating. A customer in a casino may not care since they're not the ones being cheated.
And no good professional ref would ever make a call or do their job differently because of this as it would be unprofessional to cater to the whim of players that have personal stake and bias in the matter.
Nor would they even look at the upcoming play any differently than their training would have them.
A professional ref won't do anything differently, but they will keep their eyes open on the situation. I'm not saying the refs have to go out of their way; just be more alert. The player brought it to their attention so the ref will watch for it. A chess player brings it to the attention of the staff, and the staff will check on it.
There's nothing at all wrong with including user feedback as a part of a detection system.
If it were not a part of the detection, there would be a lot of users asking for it. And it would be a pretty crappy response to say "we have models which track this stuff so we don't need your help, thanks".
From a iceberg is only the seventh part visible. And so it will be with using engine help, I presume -
Wow that is well-written. I feel smarter for having read that.
<golf clap>
Re Ref: Their eyes would already be open. That is their job. If it takes a player to get a ref to pay attention there is something wrong with that referee.
Interpolate: Flavor Flav nailed it 20 years ago....911 is a joke.
You think cheaters will do something while the ref is watching? A player notifying the ref would have the ref pay more attention to see if there is cheating.
You think cheaters will do something while the ref is watching?
Yes.
The best hiding spots are right out in the open.
I think the analogy just broke down.
Ozzie is right -- there are a number of tools at Chess.com's disposal -- why should they eschew any of them? As leading indicators of engine abuse go, I'd expect that abuse reports are among the best ones available.
You think cheaters will do something while the ref is watching?
Yes.
The best hiding spots are right out in the open.
Right...
While somtimes that might be true, it certainly not in this case where refs are looking for foul play.
So if it's not 100% effective, it must not be of any use at all?
I view the yellow lines in your analogy as the analog of the rules of this site -- they tell you what the parameters are and indicate how to stay within them. Fear of reprisal is only effective if there is an effective way to police something so that the punishment can actually be handed out. I think that abuse reports are a valuable tool in the policing aresnal for cheating on this site.
I don't know about your neighbourhood, but the police in mine are more than happy to accept tips -- in fact, there is even a tip hot-line.
Exactly. I don't think that Richie quite gets this, but Oprah probably does.
Yellow lines do not prevent drivers from crossing over their lanes. It is only fear of reprisal (accidents, tickets, et.al.) that keeps people driving in their proper lanes.
Breeding a society where people snitch on one another instead of comunicating directly is not such a good thing and does not stop people from cheating. In fact, it makes the admission that they are cheating and the best that can be done is to catch them after they have done so.
If cheating was preventable, there would be no reason to have people reporting each other.
I do not expect many of you to follow this or accept this as it does not fit well with the paradigm you wish/choose to have on the subject.
If it is through users reporting potential abuses that people get caught then it has become clear to me now that the only real tool is intimidation and peer pressure.
Good luck!
So if you're playing a game, and you suspect your opponent is cheating, you'd recommend telling him to stop cheating? You think that will stop them from cheating? That's better than informing the staff?
There are plenty of crimes where criminals are caught after it is committed. It isn't often where they're apprehended while the crime is in progress, and it's rarer for it to happen before it starts.
There isn't a fool-proof method for preventing cheating, but the people here are doing the best they can. If you have a better method then tell us.
So your idea of one player telling another player to stop cheating during a game they're playing is not peer pressure or intimidation? That to me is clearly intimidation. There's no intimidation when the suspected cheater is reported. If that person isn't cheating then i doubt the suspected cheater even realizes there was a report.
Good point. This site is a lot more civil than Yahoo. There, it's all up to the board owner. So if I beat him in a way that "seems too easy", he'll say "bot" and kick me off.
I suppose they're just playing the probabilities. If someone comes along and completely wipes them off the board, without really giving them any play at all (seeing through their 1 move traps), chances are probably it's a bot and not a titled player. This is why it's not good to have it rely just on user reporting.
Baseballfan, don't you see how much you contradict yourself? You say you want users to report suspected cheating. OK, I did, and I provided you with a positional game in which a player achieves 90-100% agreement with the top move of an engine (and some others confirmed my results, using a different engine). With the first 3 moves of an engine, the agreement is 100%. Not counting the moves in the opening and the forced moves.
However you decided that this is not cheating. Great! But I am very confused ...
1. What is cheating if the case above is NOT? Perhaps me and many others here have a different definition for cheating than chess.com
2. What do you expect other users to report you? Again, an agreement percentage UNMATCHED by any human in the history of chess was not enough evidence.
My guess is that you only say you take cheating seriously, because otherwise a lot of players would simply leave the site.
You can't 100% confirm that somebody is cheating on the Internet.
I don't know, really, what is this huge excitement about cheaters, are we doing here the World Cup or something like it?
Guys its the Internet.... You play nice and fair and sometimes you will play against somebody who is not. So I avoid those players next time. Big deal if somebody nails me down with their cheating techniques. I could care less. I just enjoy the board with its pieces and options that appear and disappear. Its just a wonderful game CHESS.
Whats next, DNA double X verifications?? Peace! ;)
The following kinds of cheating are NOT POSSIBLE on this site:
1. Changing the rules of chess.
2. Moving my pieces when I'm not looking.
3. Making illegal moves.
4. Swapping pieces behind my back.
5. etc.
So, the way I figure it, there is nothing any opponent can do to make MY moves any better or worse than they might otherwise be. Everything that I do in a game is within the rules and confines of chess, and reflects my own personal ability.
In other words, cheating doesn't affect ME, only those who choose to cheat, themselves. So I don't lose any sleep over it. Cheat away; I'll still play the best game I can.
I once caught a guy (on another website) because he was cheating in the same computer cluster as I was.
I also didn't like him very much.
I also was an administrator on said website.
No, the guy wasn't very smart.
I don't know why people who do not care about cheating track this forum.
I care a lot about cheating.
1. It simply ruins the atmosphere on a chess site.
2. I don't have time to play many games. Playing against Rybka is an immense loss of time for me. I played against MirceaH. Did the paranoic cared that I read a book about Caro-Kann while playing with him? Of course not!! He just stayed in his armchair, drinking beer and starting Rybka. Idiot pervert!
3. If many people have the feeling that some cheating is allowed, they will start cheating themselves. I don't want this site to get the model of yahoo, I want it to immitate ICC. Otherwise, there is no point for me playing serious games here.
It's not the same as a casino. A better choice would be a basketball game. The ball players will try to point out to the refs that their opponent is cheating. A customer in a casino may not care since they're not the ones being cheated.