Is it cheating if I use a real chess board during a live game? - Chess Forums - Page 3

Anonymous_Dragon

Dec 30, 2021

0

#41

CooloutAC wrote:

porkqupine wrote:

Nobody can "just" do it in his mind. Calculating is a skill that should be learnt. Even top players make mistakes, oh the horror.

It's acceptable in daily because it's the whole point of daily. You're not supposed to stare at the board for the whole day, you're supposed to move pieces around. That's the whole idea of the format, that's why it's allowed.

Picturing the board and being able to move the pieces in ones mind is something they are born with. Trying to do that on the board puts you at a disadvantage imo. I don't even see how its possible for more then a couple moves. Even with the board next to you you will still need to do it in your mind. I mean i'm trying it right now and it makes no logical sense.

And i'm not sure what you mean in daily you are supposed to move the pieces around thats why its allowed. I don't get what you mean by that.

Bruh why would you need to do it in your mind when the board is next to you ?

Anonymous_Dragon

Dec 30, 2021

0

#42

moxnix222 wrote:

I don't really like how lichess looks and I like chess.coms app etc. I was mostly saying I don't see it as an unfair advantage to use another board to practice moves because I thought the other guy could do that if he wanted to as well. I thought this because well how people play in OTB chess timed tournaments was 0% of my chess experience so trying to mimic that wasn't something I even thought about. I'm sure if i dug through some fair play document that no one ever reads it is listed somewhere but it really tilts me that I unintentionally cheated and think if they are gonna have a silly unenforceable rule they better at least make it clear your not allowed to do it. Sure that might be my responsibility but I'm not a moron and no one reads those things so I cant be the only one. Putting the analysis tool into daily just adds to the confusion. I guess at the end of the day the can make anything they want illegal its their website it just seems like a dumb rule catering to OTB play when its on online format.

If you have a doubt why it's allowed in daily chess , just think of correspondence chess. People used to send their moves to their opponent through mail . Once the move was received , a player would sit down , try to gather resources (consult some of their friends , read a book about the opening that was being played in the game , look up databases ) and then when he was done he would send his move through mail again.

Daily chess is just a way to mimic that experience . And by allowing everyone to use opening books and databases , it is an attempt to eliminate the advantage of knowing opening theory .

Elbow_Jobertski

Dec 30, 2021

0

#43

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

Yes it's okay to do it in daily chess . I would suggest you to please learn the principle differences between daily chess and live chess

It is legal in daily because in correspondence chess rules against it were unenforceable.

Unlike playing games in live chess, where rules against it are... well... unenforceable.

Chess.com can make their own rules, but this one is pretty silly given they already have settings that would be massively illegal OTB that I don't use but see on streams quite often.

Anonymous_Dragon

Dec 30, 2021

0

#44

Elbow_Jobertski wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

Yes it's okay to do it in daily chess . I would suggest you to please learn the principle differences between daily chess and live chess

It is legal in daily because in correspondence chess rules against it were unenforceable.

Unlike playing games in live chess, where rules against it are... well... unenforceable.

Chess.com can make their own rules, but this one is pretty silly given they already have settings that would be massively illegal OTB that I don't use but see on streams quite often.

Well I didn't know about that

jetoba

Dec 30, 2021

0

#45

CooloutAC wrote:

I would consider most of those things you mentioned cheating. But a player having a physical board next to them would disadvantage them imo compared to a player who could just do it in his mind. He would be way too slow unless playing classical. And if its acceptable for daily, then why not for classical?

It is acceptable for daily because daily is a form of correspondence and correspondence has always been designed to allow it. The shorter forms have not been designed to allow it and have prohibited it for decades (not sure if it is multiple centuries yet). When electronic notation devices (ENDs) first came out an initial reaction was that people could use it as an analysis board and the requirement to make the move before recording the move became stronger (absolute for ENDs).

The tournaments that prohibit it have the difficulty of managing it as part of the reason for the prohibition (with those side/rear views of the players with the chessboards showing, many of the other players (who can all see those views) would start complaining about the person using the board to analyze.

Anonymous_Dragon

Dec 30, 2021

0

#46

CooloutAC wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

CooloutAC wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

CooloutAC wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

CooloutAC wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

moxnix222 wrote:

I mean I never thought about it like that I for one prefer being able to do practice moves and would prefer they just let you do it like you can in daily in live. Doesn't feel so good to think I've been unintentionally cheating. On the one hand I guess it makes sense in that it more accurately mirrors over the board play but tbh I don't care about over the board play and just wish they would let us use the analysis thing in live. Like if a rule is not enforceable it seems silly to me and they let me do it in daily chess on their own board how does that make sense? Like you say of course its cheating but it wasn't obvious to me.

Daily chess is a different thing altogether. It resembles correspondence chess from the old days in some ways . You are even allowed to consult opening databases and other resources (of course not engines) in a daily game which you certainly aren't allowed in live chess .

Thats a lame excuse. You can't cherry pick which formats you deem its ;cheating in because that comes off extremely hypocritical. And wow, this is another example of this community condoning cheating. They probably say that becau8se they know its inevitable and unstoppable. But why even concede it? Shameful. Engine use should not be allowed in any format.

And again tournament players picturing the board in their mind or someone playing out positions on a real board to me are the same thing. I don't consider it a trained and excercised skill just an ability you are born with. I don't even think it gives someone a real advantage especially in blitz and bullet, other then helping them learn the feel of OTB chess and better retaining the positions if OTB is what they aspire to. I think its actually a disadvantage.

Dude Engine use is banned in all formats . What the hell is wrong with you ?

And again tournament players picturing the board in their mind or someone playing out positions on a real board to me are the same thing.

It's the same thing to you , but the world doesn't revolve around you my friend . And yes it does make a difference. When you set up a board and make the moves before hand , you are likely to not make a mistake which otherwise you might have made had you been just visualizing the entire thing in your head

I don't believe there is a difference at all for people who have that ability. In fact people who can do it in their mind still have the advantage because it will take less time. then someone moving pieces on a board and then trying to set them back up again. its literally impossible for short time controls. And again it comes off completely hypocritical if you think its acceptable to Daily but not for anything else. What a contradiction.

It does make a difference. No matter how many times you say it , unless you are a super GM you are almost always going to perform better by setting up a board and trying out the variations no matter how good you are at visualizing stuff .

People may do it in rapid games . It won't do much harm to their clock .

Daily chess is completely different from live chess . Both serve a different purpose . Hence there are certain rules that differ .

Only if playing classical. I mean have you even tried to do this in blitz or rapid? are you kidding me? Do you then cry you got dirty flagged? I mean i can't believe you are arguing its ok to do in daily but not in classical. There is no way you can go too many moves deep.

I don't do it and I never will . But there are people who do it in rapid . And yes there's enough time in rapid to do that . Also btw I don't cry when I get dirty flagged coz it's a part of the game . Though I may get mad for that moment , but I am not gonna hold grudges .

Yes it's okay to do it in daily chess . I would suggest you to please learn the principle differences between daily chess and live chess

I still think its a contradiction to allow iit in daily chess but not classical. And I can't move the pieces on the board that fast for a 10 minute rapid game. Maybe a 30 minute classical I can start moving the pieces around to find positions and give myself an advantage since I am one of those guy sthat can't picture the board in my mind well at all. But even just doing it right now I ju8st end up reverting back to picturing it in my mind, because it just doesn't make practical sense to start moving the pieces around. Maybe if it was an endgame then thats a different story. Less pieces to put back. LIke sa a deep end game with only a couple pieces maybe it would be helpful. I don't know.

Well I don't really have a very strong opinion on that . If you wish they made the rules same for daily as well as live , I would kinda disagree but it's not much big of an issue for me either .

30 mins would be called rapid I guess . And there's also this 15+10 . I agree with you that doing the moves over the board kinda makes it messy , but hey there are all sorts of people in the world . Also it's not like they are going to do it on every move . They would perhaps do it only in positions they feel are critical

Martin_Stahl

Dec 30, 2021

0

#47

CooloutAC wrote:

Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

moxnix222 wrote:

Wait you are allowed to use databases to copy moves in daily chess? See this to me feels like cheating and what i do does not but I guess its just one more reason to play blitz and abandon any longer game type.

Sorry to say . What you do is considered cheating . And daily chess is supposed to resemble correspondence chess , so no using a database isn't cheating at all .

Using a database wouldn't be much different then using an engine. Again, you sound like a hypocrite contradicting themself. I can't believe this is real.

It's completely different. Blindly following a database in Daily is a recipe for trouble, especially when your opponent leaves the database and the player doesn't understand why the moves they chose to follow were played in the game. Add to that, not every move/position reached is a good one and you can't tell when one side made a mistake, unless your database happens to be well annotated (but without engine numerical scores which would be prohibited), or you're just strong and good at analyzing anyway.

Players still have to make a choice of what moves to play when utilizing a database of games.

jetoba

Dec 30, 2021

0

#48

CooloutAC wrote:

jetoba wrote:

CooloutAC wrote:

I would consider most of those things you mentioned cheating. But a player having a physical board next to them would disadvantage them imo compared to a player who could just do it in his mind. He would be way too slow unless playing classical. And if its acceptable for daily, then why not for classical?

It is acceptable for daily because daily is a form of correspondence and correspondence has always been designed to allow it. The shorter forms have not been designed to allow it and have prohibited it for decades (not sure if it is multiple centuries yet). When electronic notation devices (ENDs) first came out an initial reaction was that people could use it as an analysis board and the requirement to make the move before recording the move became stronger (absolute for ENDs).

The tournaments that prohibit it have the difficulty of managing it as part of the reason for the prohibition (with those side/rear views of the players with the chessboards showing, many of the other players (who can all see those views) would start complaining about the person using the board to analyze.

Can you explain how and why? Because what it looks like to me is simply admitting it has no advantage for the shorter time controls but can't be stopped for the longer time controls. As for having the cameras that is to prevent the potential for engine use, other people helping, etc... all the many reasons that were mentioned especially in long time control matches. But using a real OTB Board? I guess maybe i'm wrong I dunno.

Am I even misu8nderstanding the OP> I assume he is just playing along on an OTB board, bu8t mistakenly thinks that gives him some sort of advantage because of all the myths he hears that OTB is better somehow. When imo its harmless and even DGT boards are allowed.

Once you allow it, and you have cameras that would show it in use then you also have to ensure that the boards are being used only in conjunction with the current moves, not for analysis of future moves. There are not enough arbiters to watch and live-track every game (video feed of the person/setup plus a feed showing the current game position). Rather than invite abusing the privilege (may be some) and claims that other people are abusing the privilege (probably a lot regardless of whether or not the claims are valid), it is a lot simpler to ban the extra boards. The same logic has been used to ban spectators at many kids tournaments to get rid of all the claims that a parent or coach scratching an itch (or coughing, or turning their head, or reading a book and turning a page in a certain way, etc.) are all obvious(?!) signals that should result in the kids of those parents or coaches immediately being ruled as losing or getting ejected.

Chrismoonster

Dec 30, 2021

0

#49

I don't see how anyone, other than yourself, would know that you also used a board. A chess.com rule that banned using a physical board and pieces for on line games would be unenforceable.

Martin_Stahl

Dec 30, 2021

0

#50

CooloutAC wrote:

Ironic because many people including Super GM's say that very thing about engine best moves. In fact its why I prefer the analysi engine on lichess because it will show the threats and let me go through the different lines at my own pace. Showing the multiple best move arrows and threat arrows. Because most of the time on chess.com I don't know why a move is the best move.

But The question is why woudl you allow something for daily but not rapid. Why allow it at all?

Because Live is supposed to mimic OTB and Daily is supposed to mimic classic Correspondence (without engines).

But it is different because most users blindly following and engine is going to beat 99% of their opponents. The same isn't remotely true for Daily and database use.

Anonymous_Dragon

Dec 30, 2021

0

#51

ColoutAc I can't believe that you think Databases and Engines are the same thing

mpaetz

Dec 30, 2021

0

#52

Technically it is against the rules, but as you are not on camera no one can know you are doing it. Should you move the pieces on the physical board it is cheating, but your practice seems ok and I doubt most opponents would object. Some might not believe you're not actually using the real board to analyze.

Chess rules are tweaked from time to time as real-life situations occur that were not considered when the rule was written. And some rule-breaking is overlooked 99.9% of the time as nobody cares about some technicalities. For example, often in the opening I know what I am going to play next as soon as my opponent moves so I write down his move and my move, which I make immediately. No one has ever objected, even in FIDE rated events. Probably they don't even notice something that trivial.

StormCentre3

Dec 30, 2021

0

#53

lfPatriotGames wrote:

paranoiddelusionist wrote:

nah cheating is using an engine or getting outside help

Chess. com has openly admitted using a real board is considered outside help. And thus, is not allowed. However, when called out on it they revised their position. Chess.com claims they want to promote the real chess experience as much as possible, which obviously would include using a real board. So when they realized they are contradicting themselves, they reluctantly admitted using a real board is ok to do.

Obviously using a real board would have to be done as you would in an actual real game of chess. Meaning you only move the pieces as you would in a real over the board game. No "practice" moves allowed.

When I play online chess I often use a real board because I like the actual real experience. Because I only move the pieces as I would if the other person were sitting across from me it's ok.

The post is inaccurate. A made up interpretation of this topic that has been discussed in many threads for years. Not going to get into the facts nor debate these kind of misleading and false assumptions that members make regarding the subject. These posts are merely guessing at what they think is the proper use of a 2nd board for live play.

CC staff highly discourages the practice and has never said nor admitted otherwise. It is not ok. Staff has never endorsed nor promoted differently.

It is an unnecessary practice which is undetectable and hence no rule is written prohibiting it. Learn to using one board - the screen. Anything else is not desirable and can easily result in unwanted practices.

usernameone

Dec 30, 2021

0

#54

I'm pretty sure it's allowed.

Carrots666

Dec 30, 2021

0

#55

Good question... I don't think that you can't (u can), but it is not analysis so it's fine I guess.

IsraeliGal

Dec 30, 2021

0

#56

Martin_Stahl wrote:

JohanKjeldahl07 wrote:

If I am playing a 30 minute game, is it cheating if I have an actual chess set with me and copy the moves that are happening online? I usually make less mistakes if I play on an actual board instead of on the screen, so before I do that I wanted to make sure it is okay to do that.

Thank you in advance for your help!

It's not one of the things listed as not allowed under the site Fair Play rules: https://support.chess.com/article/648-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-fair-play-on-chess-com

There have been a lot of discussions over the years regarding this and if you are not using the physical board to test ideas out, you always make the move on the screen that you make on the board (or actually make on the screen first) then there shouldn't be any problem with it. However, if you're testing out ideas on the board that wouldn't be allowed, or if you make a move on the board, get ready to make the move on the computer and change your mind, that wouldn't be acceptable.

But there's no way to police that.

So whats the point saying using it specifically those ways isn't allowed. It's impossible to know.

Elbow_Jobertski

Dec 30, 2021

0

#57

As much as I think a rule against it is silly, I do think in a live game using a separate analysis board or even drawing arrows is a very bad idea for anyone with any ambition to explore their own mind in the context of chess. Being able to hold things in your head and manipulate them is a basic type of intelligence and that sort of function is important especially for us older people that need this sort of thing to help stave off mental decline.

So don't do it and don't worry that other people might be.

IsraeliGal

Dec 30, 2021

0

#58

No that's wrong. other forms of cheating like having a friend help, or using an engine is clearly detectable because your level of play won't ascribe to the level you usually play at or your rating.

But using a chess board, first off it's impossible to know if someone has it set up. Secondly it's not going to boost your level of play, at least not much. You will still perform at a level that you usually perform at. You just get to analyse visually instead of mentally.

^Thats what im saying. if that is considered cheating, there is literally no way to police it.

Optimissed

Dec 30, 2021

0

#59

It would help if Chess.com realised that using a 3-D board to see the position clearer, without moving the pieces around at all, isn't cheating. If they are obviously confused as to what's cheating, there's no wonder that people might cheat deliberately and move the pieces around. No-one can know if they do or not and that's partly what makes it silly. We aren't even allowed to discuss this subject in public because anything that they regard as cheating can't be discussed, so therefore there won't be any feedback regarding what members think about it. Not very democratic.

Optimissed

Dec 30, 2021

0

#60

Personally I'm sure it would harm my "level of play" because my brain would, I'm sure, get very confused by constant transitions between 2-D and 3-D, so I don't believe it can lead to an advantage. So I certainly wouldn't do it.