Kwolverine04 wrote:
Let's see, I promise I didn't use an engine.
I think I covered everything best I could.
@Kwolverine - in your last line, after KxR, black has a better move... Guys, it's draw. And the lines are mind-blowing:
Draw or Win?
Sort:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
lfPatriotGames написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
Ok, white still wins most likely. What's the answer?
I think the answer is what IMBacon said. Kf3. Eventually the white king gets to f3. Then how does black prevent mate? I dont see any possible way.
It's definitely not enough just to say Kf3. We need to calculate all the possible options after 1...Rg1+ 2.Kf3 Ne5+ 3.Ke2 (or 3.fe Rf1+, Rf8 and there's no mate) 3...Re1+ 4.Kxe1 (or 4.Kd2) 4...a1Q+ and the following series of checks.
If the OP was playing someone rated 3400 that's one thing. But they weren't.
What's the difference who were playing? We're analyzing and trying to find out the truth.
The difference is. I'm not playing anyone rated 3400, and most likely never will. I have no desire to try and understand the "truth" behind moves made by something that no human will ever reach in my lifetime. I'm much more interested in understanding something much more closer to what i will encounter across the board.
There's no difference. When analyzing one should assume that both white and black make the best moves. Carlsen isn't 3400 but always looks for the best moves. I'm not 3400, not Carlsen and still looking for the best moves. That's what chess is about.
How is it going to benefit you trying to find all the best moves? You cant retain all that information.
Any by "best" moves. Do you mean the best engine moves, or the best human move, based on the opponents ability?
You broaden you mind solving endgame studies. The information you retain is experience and the methods of escaping from a totally lost position. And it's interesting. Isn't a desperado rook interesting? I think it is. And I don't like playing against weaker opponents with poor abilities. I always try to do my best playing a game and I expect the same from my opponent.
I will ask again...
By "best" move. Do you mean the best engine move, or the best humanly possible move?
JollyBishop wrote:
Kwolverine04 wrote:
Let's see, I promise I didn't use an engine.
I think I covered everything best I could.
@Kwolverine - in your last line, after KxR, black has a better move... Guys, it's draw. And the lines are mind-blowing:
@chess.com - I really think this is an incredible endgame study and worthy of inclusion in Tactics Trainer....
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
IMBacon написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
lfPatriotGames написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
Ok, white still wins most likely. What's the answer?
I think the answer is what IMBacon said. Kf3. Eventually the white king gets to f3. Then how does black prevent mate? I dont see any possible way.
It's definitely not enough just to say Kf3. We need to calculate all the possible options after 1...Rg1+ 2.Kf3 Ne5+ 3.Ke2 (or 3.fe Rf1+, Rf8 and there's no mate) 3...Re1+ 4.Kxe1 (or 4.Kd2) 4...a1Q+ and the following series of checks.
If the OP was playing someone rated 3400 that's one thing. But they weren't.
What's the difference who were playing? We're analyzing and trying to find out the truth.
The difference is. I'm not playing anyone rated 3400, and most likely never will. I have no desire to try and understand the "truth" behind moves made by something that no human will ever reach in my lifetime. I'm much more interested in understanding something much more closer to what i will encounter across the board.
There's no difference. When analyzing one should assume that both white and black make the best moves. Carlsen isn't 3400 but always looks for the best moves. I'm not 3400, not Carlsen and still looking for the best moves. That's what chess is about.
How is it going to benefit you trying to find all the best moves? You cant retain all that information.
Any by "best" moves. Do you mean the best engine moves, or the best human move, based on the opponents ability?
You broaden you mind solving endgame studies. The information you retain is experience and the methods of escaping from a totally lost position. And it's interesting. Isn't a desperado rook interesting? I think it is. And I don't like playing against weaker opponents with poor abilities. I always try to do my best playing a game and I expect the same from my opponent.
I will ask again...
By "best" move. Do you mean the best engine move, or the best humanly possible move?
Depends on the position. In endgames it often means the same thing.
Maybe that was why you kept on promoting it to a bishop but not a queen.
JollyBishop, did you play as black?
Yep, JollyBishop opened my eyes - Much more complicated than I initially surmised. Good thread!
rg1!!!!!!!!!
draw
Looks like a simple win for white. White just works up the board anyway he can?
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
lfPatriotGames написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
Ok, white still wins most likely. What's the answer?
I think the answer is what IMBacon said. Kf3. Eventually the white king gets to f3. Then how does black prevent mate? I dont see any possible way.
It's definitely not enough just to say Kf3. We need to calculate all the possible options after 1...Rg1+ 2.Kf3 Ne5+ 3.Ke2 (or 3.fe Rf1+, Rf8 and there's no mate) 3...Re1+ 4.Kxe1 (or 4.Kd2) 4...a1Q+ and the following series of checks.
Maybe I am missing something, but it looks pretty simple to me. In your first situation where black gets his rook to f8 it's mate in two. The second, where the king goes to d2 promoting to a queen doesn't help. It's mate in one. Either way it's mate immediately or white gets his king to f3 where it's mate in a few more moves. So it seems to me the only thing that really matters is white getting his king to f3, as IMBacon said. Most people are not going to see or play anything different than that. A computer might see a draw but a person probably wont.
lfPatriotGames написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
lfPatriotGames написал:
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
Ok, white still wins most likely. What's the answer?
I think the answer is what IMBacon said. Kf3. Eventually the white king gets to f3. Then how does black prevent mate? I dont see any possible way.
It's definitely not enough just to say Kf3. We need to calculate all the possible options after 1...Rg1+ 2.Kf3 Ne5+ 3.Ke2 (or 3.fe Rf1+, Rf8 and there's no mate) 3...Re1+ 4.Kxe1 (or 4.Kd2) 4...a1Q+ and the following series of checks.
Maybe I am missing something, but it looks pretty simple to me. In your first situation where black gets his rook to f8 it's mate in two. The second, where the king goes to d2 promoting to a queen doesn't help. It's mate in one. Either way it's mate immediately or white gets his king to f3 where it's mate in a few more moves. So it seems to me the only thing that really matters is white getting his king to f3, as IMBacon said. Most people are not going to see or play anything different than that. A computer might see a draw but a person probably wont.
Yes, you're missing something and it's not that simple as it seems. Since the f-file is opened after fxe5 and the black rook is on f1 Rb7-b8 or Rc7-c8 isn't checkmate anymore. And of course black won't play Rf8 while the white rooks are on the 7th rank. Check out the analysis publushed by the op #22. As for imbacon, he says Kf3 and nothing else. He doesn't understand that chess isn't about just moves, chess is about variations.
tired_of_ignorance wrote:
JollyBishop, did you play as black?
I was white and won. I was really lucky. I played a terrible game late at night after a few drinks! I got a winning position out of the opening and then threw it away. I then luckily swindled my opponent who got a good advantage, but didn't capitalize. Full game here. Needless to say, he didn't find Rg1!!, but I'm not sure anyone would find the drawing sequence - especially Ne5!!
Thank you for sharing the game.
Black plays Rg1+, when white plays Kxg1 black promotes with the a2 pawn. When white doesn't take the rook gives black another check with Ne5+, white can choose: Capture the knight and black plays Rf1+ and black defends square f8. Or doesn't capture and it's draw with eternal check
JollyBishop: the second variation in post 22 is not well. I think there is no perpetual check, because after 6. Tgd7, Da8, White has no way to check the black king. What the white answer? If 7. Th7, h5+. And now? The black Queen came back to the game. Rxh5 is out of question. So, White king must move. But where to go? If 8. Rxh5, De8+, and if 9. Rg5, Dd8+. 10. Rh5, Re8. Now, black wins...
So I suppose there is no perpetual check
JollyBishop wrote:
JollyBishop wrote: I recently had this position in a blitz game. It's black to play. Without using an engine, is it a win for white or a draw?
I recently had this position in a blitz game. It's black to play. Without using an engine, is it a win for white or a draw?
oops, actually thought white was going to perpet, me being the geinus that I am 
nightdaydream wrote:
JollyBishop: the second variation in post 22 is not well. I think there is no perpetual check, because after 6. Tgd7, Da8, White has no way to check the black king. What the white answer? If 7. Th7, h5+. And now? The black Queen came back to the game. Rxh5 is out of question. So, White king must move. But where to go? If 8. Rxh5, De8+, and if 9. Rg5, Dd8+. 10. Rh5, Re8. Now, black wins...
So I suppose there is no perpetual check
Actually, it seems Qa8 after 6. Rgd7 is a blunder. White can then play e6 with e7+ to follow, winning the queen.
Ok, white still wins most likely. What's the answer?
I think the answer is what IMBacon said. Kf3. Eventually the white king gets to f3. Then how does black prevent mate? I dont see any possible way.
It's definitely not enough just to say Kf3. We need to calculate all the possible options after 1...Rg1+ 2.Kf3 Ne5+ 3.Ke2 (or 3.fe Rf1+, Rf8 and there's no mate) 3...Re1+ 4.Kxe1 (or 4.Kd2) 4...a1Q+ and the following series of checks.
If the OP was playing someone rated 3400 that's one thing. But they weren't.
What's the difference who were playing? We're analyzing and trying to find out the truth.
The difference is. I'm not playing anyone rated 3400, and most likely never will. I have no desire to try and understand the "truth" behind moves made by something that no human will ever reach in my lifetime. I'm much more interested in understanding something much more closer to what i will encounter across the board.
There's no difference. When analyzing one should assume that both white and black make the best moves. Carlsen isn't 3400 but always looks for the best moves. I'm not 3400, not Carlsen and still looking for the best moves. That's what chess is about.
How is it going to benefit you trying to find all the best moves? You cant retain all that information.
Any by "best" moves. Do you mean the best engine moves, or the best human move, based on the opponents ability?
You broaden you mind solving endgame studies. The information you retain is experience and the methods of escaping from a totally lost position. And it's interesting. Isn't a desperado rook interesting? I think it is. And I don't like playing against weaker opponents with poor abilities. I always try to do my best playing a game and I expect the same from my opponent.