exchanging queens first 3 moves?

Sort:
SamuelAjedrez95
MikhailKasparov wrote:

I can't imagine how anybody would start a game of chess hoping to get an ugly position like that as Black. You have a symmetrical pawn structure with less space, worse pieces, and no winning chances. There is no way to create a meaningful imbalance in the position. And in fact this is why literally nobody plays even 1...d6 at the top levels, because it's about the most timid move there is.

I would never play this as black because I would never encourage a queenless middlegame. The point is that it's also not that good for white to open up the queen trade either as the resulting position doesn't give white a significant advantage.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

Can you tell me why Stockfish11 gives 4. Qxd8+ as the top engine move then?

EDIT: I will add this: Basically if white does not exchange, they throw away most of the advantage they could have gained by exchanging.

Obviously when the pawns have been traded Qxd8+ is the best move. When I say it's better to keep queens on the board I mean not taking on e5.

I would still take on e5 in order to exchange and Stockfish agrees. 3. dxe5 is the top move with an eval of +0.87. Your recommendation 3. Nf3 is not bad (but not as good as taking on e5 either), it is given as the third option with an eval of +0.42.

Stockfish evaluations should not be stared at without consideration of course, but if my own assessment is verified by Stockfish, then I am pretty sure it is correct.

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

I would still take on e5 in order to exchange and Stockfish agrees. 3. dxe5 is the top move with an eval of +0.87. Your recommendation 3. Nf3 is not bad (but not as good as taking on e5 either), it is given as the third option with an eval of +0.42.

Stockfish evaluations should not be stared at without consideration of course, but if my own assessment is verified by Stockfish, then I am pretty sure it is correct.

This is what stockfish gives as the best move. If you want to play a queenless middlegame then that's your choice but it's not that good and also it's boring.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

No I did not. I first figured out 4. Qxd8+ is the best move for the reasons I gave in my first reply.

Then after you stated that "white maintains a much more significant advantage by keeping queens on the board" I checked with Stockfish. Stockfish agreed with me. White does not maintain a more significant advantage by keeping the Queens on the board, but practically throws almost all of their advantage away for no reason.

Yes black can still equalize after the Queens come off, but they will have to work for it. If the Queens stay on, it is much easier for black to equalize (it is almost equal already at that point) and if white does something stupid like 4. Nc3 then 4... Qxd1+ gives a slight advantage to black.

This is what I mean by keeping the queens on the board:

If you want to look at stockfish, you will see that it prefers Nf3 to dxe5.

At least the one I am looking at does not.

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

At least the one I am looking at does not.

You're only on depth 22 using Stockfish 11. I cba to argue about the engine though.

MikhailKasparov
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
Habanababananero wrote:

At least the one I am looking at does not.

You're only on depth 22 using Stockfish 11. I cba to argue about the engine though.

Just wait until Stockfish 20, it will recommend 3.d5 and our minds will be blown.

SamuelAjedrez95

Keeping queens on is just better. It maintains the tension and space advantage. Keeps black cramped behind the d6 pawn. There are better opportunities to attack. Also it's more interesting and more fun.

Playing this queenless middlegame with either colour is just going to be fairly miserable. I do not encourage it.

SamuelAjedrez95
MikhailKasparov wrote:

Just wait until Stockfish 20, it will recommend 3.d5 and our minds will be blown.

Lol. At least it's not trading queens.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

At least the one I am looking at does not.

You're only on depth 22 using Stockfish 11. I cba to argue about the engine though.

Yeah, well, not too many humans think more than 11 moves (22 half moves) deep or beat Stockfish 11.

But I guess also 3. Nf3 is a very strong move. I would still play 3. dxe5 and exchange, since I would know exactly why I am doing it and my advantage would feel more concrete.

Your line is better I guess with best play from both sides, but it is very unlikely both players play like engines for very many moves.

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

Yeah, well, not too many humans think more than 11 moves (22 half moves) deep or beat Stockfish 11.

But I guess also 3. Nf3 is a very strong move. I would still play 3. dxe5 and exchange, since I would know exactly why I am doing it and my advantage would feel more concrete.

Your line is better I guess with best play from both sides, but it is very unlikely both players play like engines for very many moves.

Ok then. If you want to play like that then go ahead.

I'm just recommending that the game is probably going to be a lot more fun for you if you don't trade queens in the opening. But who am I to say what you enjoy...

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

Yeah, well, not too many humans think more than 11 moves (22 half moves) deep or beat Stockfish 11.

But I guess also 3. Nf3 is a very strong move. I would still play 3. dxe5 and exchange, since I would know exactly why I am doing it and my advantage would feel more concrete.

Your line is better I guess with best play from both sides, but it is very unlikely both players play like engines for very many moves.

Ok then. If you want to play like that then go ahead.

I'm just recommending that the game is probably going to be a lot more fun for you if you don't trade queens in the opening. But who am I to say what you enjoy...

I enjoy winning tongue

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

I enjoy winning

Right, and not trading queens gives better winning chances and is also more fun.

Two birds with one stone.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

I enjoy winning

Right, and not trading queens gives better winning chances and is also more fun.

Two birds with one stone.

Which line (trading or not) is more fun is subjective and no, not trading Queens does not really give you better winning chances. Even if you have a bit of a better eval, your opponent has a lot more counter play when their Queen is on the board.

I would take the white side on the trading Queens situation any day and that is what I would go for. I think it is fun when my opponent can't castle and just has to work hard to equalize and I get to try to win.

SamuelAjedrez95

You can see that people are winning more often with Nf3:

Nf3: 53 white / 30 draw / 17 black

dxe5: 33 white / 44 draw / 22 black

SamuelAjedrez95

Do what you want. Trading queens is just lame af, especially with the white pieces. When you play with the white pieces, in principle you are supposed to attack.

If you want so badly to trade queens because you're so afraid of black's "counterplay", that's just sad.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:

You can see that people are winning more often with Nf3:

Nf3: 53 white / 30 draw / 17 black

dxe5: 33 white / 44 draw / 22 black

That would be the masters database right? Check the Lichess database for your own rating range and you will see that those percentages change quite a bit.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:

Do what you want. Trading queens is just lame af, especially with the white pieces. When you play with the white pieces, in principle you are supposed to attack.

If you want so badly to trade queens because you're so afraid of black's "counterplay", that's just sad.

LOL. No reason to get angry there and start being rude.

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

That would be the masters database right? Check the Lichess database for your own rating range and you will see that those percentages change quite a bit.

Yes, and the master's database represents more accurate play so it paints a better picture of the quality of the opening.

In the lichess database the results are more even across all openings as more games are decided by blunders and inaccuracies in the middlegame and endgame rather than the opening.

However, even in the lichess database, Nf3 still scores better.

SamuelAjedrez95
Habanababananero wrote:

LOL. No reason to get angry there and start being rude.

Lmao. What I said wasn't rude at all. You're just being overly sensitive.

Habanababananero
SamuelAjedrez95 kirjoitti:
Habanababananero wrote:

That would be the masters database right? Check the Lichess database for your own rating range and you will see that those percentages change quite a bit.

Yes, and the master's database represents more accurate play so it paints a better picture of the quality of the opening.

In the lichess database the results are more even across all openings as more games are decided by blunders and inaccuracies in the middlegame and endgame rather than in the opening.

However, even in the lichess database, Nf3 still scores better.

Weird, because when I set it to Lichess database and rating range to 1000-1800 (which is where I guess both of our ratings fall) it gives:

53/6/41 for dxe5 and 54/4/42 for Nf3

So both are about the same according to that. Yes you have 54% win for Nf3 but you also have 42% lose...

Practically no difference whatsoever at our rating range and it is just a matter of taste.