How many of you play games online, but have a physical board right next to you?

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StormCentre3

The OP is addressing live play. Most of us know it’s perfectly OK for Daily play and always has been. People need reading previous posts before jumping in with the obvious.

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

The rule is not “goofy” as claimed and will not be changed even though unenforceable for online play. As some have stated - they learned to play on the flat screen and find 3D to be awkward or challenging. One is not more “ real chess” than the other.

The rules are the same. The experience is the same. Different format is all. I find it quite astonishing that some would think a rule would be deleted because it’s not 100% enforceable. To permit a 2nd board only opens the door for fair play violations in Live games - online or OTB.

That's not what chess.com says. 

aronian22

If I say that I have had a real board next to me in some 25/5 games, not for outside analysis, but just so I can get the feel of the pieces, are you going to ban me? The fact is, I have done so before. True, it was in a friendly game, but it was rated. So am I banned?  

lfPatriotGames

Using a real board is not allowed. But chess.com has said they will look the other way, because it's not enforceable. I doubt anyone would be banned, because there is no way to prove there was any assistance. Once called out for their claim that they wanted to replicate real chess as much as possible, they conceded that using a real board is "technically" against the rules but in a gray area. They made it pretty clear just dont use it for assistance, and you'll be fine. 

StormCentre3
aronian22 wrote:

If I say that I have had a real board next to me in some 25/5 games, not for outside analysis, but just so I can get the feel of the pieces, are you going to ban me? The fact is, I have done so before. True, it was in a friendly game, but it was rated. So am I banned?  

What don’t players get? Whatever rational used - “getting a feel for the pieces” - assistance is in play.

Let’s say I have a board that responds to voice commands. I just say my move and they auto- move! I make claim it should be ok for me to use it during live and I promise to always make my moves 1st on the flat screen - never ever making the move on my 2nd board 1st- (which clearly is assisted play)

Does it make sense to OK the practice- knowing it so readily opens doors for abuse and cheating?

Different rational exists for various players why they think it’s ok for them- as they don’t view it as cheating - using an engine. But Fair play is about maintaining integrity and a balanced, equal playing field - one that is agreed upon at the start. ANY form of assistance unless approved before games begin is not permitted. What’s so hard to understand?

A 2nd board is technically assistance in choosing which move to make next - regardless of pieces being moved about or not. 

stigney

Cheating  is rampant. It is a shame

aronian22
BadBishopJones3 wrote:
aronian22 wrote:

If I say that I have had a real board next to me in some 25/5 games, not for outside analysis, but just so I can get the feel of the pieces, are you going to ban me? The fact is, I have done so before. True, it was in a friendly game, but it was rated. So am I banned?  

What don’t players get? Whatever rational used - “getting a feel for the pieces” - assistance is in play.

Let’s say I have a board that responds to voice commands. I just say my move and they auto- move! I make claim it should be ok for me to use it during live and I promise to always make my moves 1st on the flat screen - never ever making the move on my 2nd board 1st- (which clearly is assisted play)

Does it make sense to OK the practice- knowing it so readily opens doors for abuse and cheating?

Different rational exists for various players why they think it’s ok for them- as they don’t view it as cheating - using an engine. But Fair play is about maintaining integrity and a balanced, equal playing field - one that is agreed upon at the start. ANY form of assistance unless approved before games begin is not permitted. What’s so hard to understand?

I'm not trying to challenge you or chess.com's rules. I'm just asking an actual question. I want to know what happens from chess.com's perspective when you do use a board for non-cheating purposes. Please don't treat this like I'm some sort of dissident or don't understand it. I just thought this would be a good place to figure that out.

lfPatriotGames
aronian22 wrote:
BadBishopJones3 wrote:
aronian22 wrote:

If I say that I have had a real board next to me in some 25/5 games, not for outside analysis, but just so I can get the feel of the pieces, are you going to ban me? The fact is, I have done so before. True, it was in a friendly game, but it was rated. So am I banned?  

What don’t players get? Whatever rational used - “getting a feel for the pieces” - assistance is in play.

Let’s say I have a board that responds to voice commands. I just say my move and they auto- move! I make claim it should be ok for me to use it during live and I promise to always make my moves 1st on the flat screen - never ever making the move on my 2nd board 1st- (which clearly is assisted play)

Does it make sense to OK the practice- knowing it so readily opens doors for abuse and cheating?

Different rational exists for various players why they think it’s ok for them- as they don’t view it as cheating - using an engine. But Fair play is about maintaining integrity and a balanced, equal playing field - one that is agreed upon at the start. ANY form of assistance unless approved before games begin is not permitted. What’s so hard to understand?

I'm not trying to challenge you or chess.com's rules. I'm just asking an actual question. I want to know what happens from chess.com's perspective when you do use a board for non-cheating purposes. Please don't treat this like I'm some sort of dissident or don't understand it. I just thought this would be a good place to figure that out.

They have addressed your question before in topics like this. you can always ask them directly, or someone from chess.com may show up here and repeat it again. I doubt their answer has changed. A few months ago the answer was it's "technically" against the rules, but not going to be enforced, because it's obviously not enforceable. And again, they stress that just dont use it for assistance and you'll be fine. Remember your opponent is free to do the exact same thing. So as long as everyone is only moving the pieces exactly as played in the game, nobody is at any advantage or disadvantage. 

StormCentre3

Enforcement is for Staff which I have nothing to do with. Surely no one will get banned- but simply warned and informed of the rules. The exception possibly is for players who continually do it and openly flaunt the rules. Most all the time it’s innocent - not aware of the implications or possibilities. But if it’s a practice that someone refuses to give up - it!s their conscience as obviously the rule can not be enforced in the privacy of their homes.

Again - the issue seems to get associated with cheating. Players are not in their minds cheating - only better seeing the board. 

StormCentre3

“So as long as everyone is only moving the pieces exactly as played in the game, nobody is at any advantage or disadvantage. “ copied from a post

This Not the issue- which is by the mere fact a 2nd board is being used - assistance in selecting the next move is had. Some seem to not think as such - they’d be mistaken.

Why is this true? Well duh? They  choose to use a 2nd board for help !

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

Enforcement is for Staff which I have nothing to do with. Surely no one will get banned- but simply warned and informed of the rules. The exception possibly is for players who continually do it and openly flaunt the rules. Most all the time it’s innocent - not aware of the implications or possibilities. But if it’s a practice that someone refuses to give up - it!s their conscience as obviously the rule can not be enforced in the privacy of their homes.

Again - the issue seems to get associated with cheating. Players are not in their minds cheating - only better seeing the board. But not the real issue when it comes to FairPlay.

Exactly. If people want to use a real board, to replicate real chess, they are allowed (as long it's not used for assistance), There are other things that people do at home, which isn't cheating, but is also unenforceable and may give one side an advantage. The rules are about fair play. But is it fair if one side is very comfortable and the other isn't? Wouldn't that be an advantage for one side? What are the rules regarding using glasses, to help visualize the board better? Or maybe a glass of wine. Or a bigger screen. Etc, etc. A real board is one of the last things anyone should be worried about. 

StormCentre3

Wrong argument. The issue pertains to chess related tools . Eyeglass example is silly. People listen to music etc. These things by themselves are not chess related. A 2nd chess board clearly is. Chess books, notes and the likes are the question. None of it can be OK’d. Open that door and abuse follows. And what’s with this “real board” stuff? OTB is real and online boards are not ? 

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

Wrong argument. The issue pertains to chess related tools . Eyeglass example is silly. People listen to music etc. These things by themselves are not chess related. A 2nd chess board clearly is. Chess books, notes and the likes are the question. None of it can be OK’d. Open that door and abuse follows.

But they help. They give one side an advantage. Maybe one side likes using red and blue pieces. While the other side like using brown and tan pieces. The color of the board. All things that give someone a possible advantage. Maybe different piece styles. Each is able to choose what they like so they may each choose that advantage. Same with a real board. As long as nobody is using for assistance, there isn't a problem because nobody has an advantage. In a real over the board game, people dont get to use different style pieces or different colored boards. So using a real board isn't any different than choosing any other custom option. As long as no assistance is used. Ask chess.com. See what they say. 

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

Wrong argument. The issue pertains to chess related tools . Eyeglass example is silly. People listen to music etc. These things by themselves are not chess related. A 2nd chess board clearly is. Chess books, notes and the likes are the question. None of it can be OK’d. Open that door and abuse follows.

If in fact a Mod stated something as - it’s OK ...  it’s unenforceable and as long as you don’t use the board for analysis ... I’d take great exception to that advice and believe he’d be corrected.

Those are almost the exact words they used. It's unenforceable (exact quote they used). As long as you dont use the board for analysis. (also a near direct quote). I dont remember if they said it's ok. I think they said something like it's fine. Same thing I guess. 

My guess is they changed their stance from "it's strictly against the rules" to "it's ok as long as you dont use it for assistance" because they want to replicate real chess. It's kind of hard to want to provide the best chess experience and at the same time, have rules to prevent it. So they made this caveat. 

StormCentre3

Chess Com has made no such caveat. You had a conversation with one member of Staff who expressed a personal opinion. Nowhere will it be found this to be policy.

 

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

Chess Com has made no such caveat. You had a conversation with one member of Staff who expressed a personal opinion. Nowhere will it be found this to be policy.

 

It was in  a public forum like this. People have asked this question before. So they answered it. Maybe their answer has changed, you should ask them. Also, "real chess" is the term they used. Not me. 

StormCentre3

Very reasonable to suggest if it’s a practice that’s insisted upon and felt necessary to play games online to inform players never use the board for analysis. Good advice since the rule can not be enforced in the privacy of your home. Guidelines remains in place and can not be changed to suit different circumstances by stating the practice is OK and part of policy. To endorse the practice- one that leaves itself wide open for obvious abuse doesn’t make much sense. Even inadvertently making 1 move 1st on the 2nd board before entering the move on the screen leads to an advantage - no matter how small. 

stigney

It is amazing that this conversation is generating so much comment!

 

StormCentre3

Not so amazing - Fair play rules and their purpose are often misunderstood or made assumptions about. Fair play is about the entire spectrum of creating and supporting an equal playing field. It’s not just about engine use. What is not regarded as an advantage for some could easily become one for others. The implications of changing the rule, to make one exception ( a 2nd board) in what constitutes gaining an advantage would be far reaching with dire consequences imo.

lfPatriotGames
BadBishopJones3 wrote:

Not so amazing - Fair play rules and their purpose are often misunderstood or made assumptions about. Fair play is about the entire spectrum of creating and supporting an equal playing field. It’s not just about engine use. What is not regarded as an advantage for some could easily become one for others. The implications of changing the rule, to make one exception ( a 2nd board) in what constitutes gaining an advantage would be far reaching with dire consequences imo.

Just like choosing a board color, the other side is free to do it also. So no advantage for either side. Its not a truly equal playing field. When you play the game, one side may have blue pieces on a green and white board. The other side may have brown pieces on a tan board. The two sides may not be playing the same board or pieces. So it's not truly equal. Each sides chooses what's comfortable for them.

Maybe that's why chess.com made this exception. Not officially of course. But it's not specifically prohibited either. They allow use of a second board, with the caveat that it not be used for assistance or analysis. Put yourself in their shoes, what other option is there?