Introduction to The Italian Game & Evans Gambit...
https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/introduction-to-the-italian-game
Includes instructive resources on the Two Knights Defense, Max Lange Attack, Fried Liver /Fegatello Attack, Traxler Counterattack/Wilkes-Barre Variation, etc.
Both the Giuoco Piano (3...Bc5) and two knights defense in the italian (3...Nf6) are equal... maybe one could argue that the giuoco piano is a little more balanced/symmetric than two knights... but they often transpose into the same lines of the italian
As far as 3...Nf6 two knights defense in the italian, beginners play it probably because they're most likely not familiar with knight attack threatening fried liver, and they often learn to develop their knights before their bishops..
More experienced players play it for whatever reason, but they could be trying to avoid the Evans gambit for example, or maybe trying to bait white into playing 4.Ng5 because even when you lose a pawn in the two knights italian (1.e4 e5, 2.Nf3 Nc6, 3.Bc4 Nf6, 4.Ng5 d5, 5.exd5 Na5, 6.Bb5+c6, 7.dxc6 bxc6) there's compensation for black even though black is down a pawn, but leads to a very imbalanced position with attacking chances for black which a lot of black players might want to play (I actually enjoy playing both sides of that position)
Traxler is more of a trap attempt than an opening... not really that reasonable, you have to hope white plays Nxf7 and then hope white plays Kxf2 and even then if white knows what they're doing it's still a draw, but it sure is fun to play as black... however the thing about the traxler is that white is in the driver's seat and if instead of capturing f7 with the knight they capture with the bishop 5.Bxf7+ then white is much better... so if you're going to assume black is playing the traxler correctly you also have to assume white is also playing correctly, otherwise it's hope chess, and if white plays it correctly they'll just capture with the bishop and get a superior position
Well I'm not a beginner so I think my reasons for preferring the Two Knights are different. For a beginner, I think they hear rules such as knights before bishops and try to apply them as much as possible, hence why the Fried Liver works so often at that level. However, I like the Two knights because of the Traxler Counter Attack. Also I do not consider the Traxler a trap at all, if I get white, I will voluntarily play Nxf7, because I am very booked up on it.
You're both 2000 and you're telling me people still don't play 5.Bxf7 ? I mean every fried liver player eventually got schooled in the traxler and learned lol... in my case I discovered the traxler before facing it so I knew the Bxf7 line, but I still lost some games in similar fashion lol
And it's one thing if you know the theory and deliberately go into it but I doubt that would be the case for most people...
Whether you consider it a trap or not it's still an inferior move that you hope to punish if Nxf7... now it's up to white to fall for it or not lol
Also, after Bxf7 do you play Kf8 or Ke7 ??
@Morfizera Some do play Bxf7+, but not everyone. Also, always play Ke7 not Kf8
the Ng5 response to the two-knights wins atleast a pawn (even if the fried liver is avoided). The only time I've found two-knights to be reasonable for black is if they play the Traxler correctly
In my opinion this is wrong. In the 4. Ng5 d5 main line black gets enormous compensation for the pawn. White is not better at all. It is a much easier equality for black than the Traxler, and less risky.
Nobody knows for sure whether 3...Bc5 or 3...Nf6 is better. It is a matter of fashion.
3...Nf6 is a gambit as 4 Ng5 wins a pawn by force. Modern grandmasters avoid 4 Ng5 and play 4 d3 when it is just a transposition. In the most recent world championship Carlsen played 3...Nf6.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2136417
Usually leads to this line in the fried liver
When two beginners are playing.
5. - Nxd5? is a beginner's mistake, white then has a comfortable choice to either sack a piece (6. Nxf7) and be better or not sack a piece (6. d4) and be better.
#16
6 d4 Bb4+ 7 c3 Be7 8 Nxf7 Kxf7 9 Qf3+ Ke6 has been abandoned as 10 Nc3 is not possible.
To be honest, the Ng5 is the only annoying line, as I am experienced in both d4 sidelines, and prefer to go with Bishop on e7 after d3.
First of all, the "modern" variation with Qf3-Bd3 gives little weaknesses for White, with pawn up, so I might have compensation, but if there are no pawns to attack, I feel bad being on the clock. Not sure if the Bd7 variation (after Bb5+) changes this, as white should be able to exchange the pawn on d5 regardless.
Then the only option is to either play proper Italian (as I said, I prefer going with Bishop on e7), Hungarian (meh), or solid Petroff, which basically avoids all other e4-e5 variations except for the 4 knights game.
Only a guess but maybe because it moves a piece to only the 3rd rank instead of the 4th so in their mind they think it's more defensive kinda like why the philidor is popular. But then they get burnt by 4.Ng5 so they start playing 3...h6. I'm talking about beginners who don't look at theory.
I play it because the Two Knights Defense is more fun than the Giuoco Piano, and when I do play this, they usually go for the Giuoco Pianissimo. This I find to be incredibly boring.
im not really a beginner I dont think, but I play the two knights, welcoming the knight attack, because ive studied a few lines of theory, polerio defense, traxler, and another one I dont fully understand yet, and cant recall the name
I havent studied lines for black in the Giuoco PIano game, so I usually avoid it as black
The Two Knight's Defense is fun to play, with some good attacking chances.
The Traxler isn't a complete loss of a pawn for black with no compensation. I would argue that Black has more active pieces and ahead in development. At least it's better than Stafford...
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This question is based off my limited experience playing the Italian game as white. (I'm rated 1070-1100 rapid). After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4, most players at this level respond 3...Nf6 (two knights) rather than 3...Bc5 (Giuoco piano). A similar third move that some play is 3...Qf6.
It seems to me that Giuoco piano is a lot more equal for black, since the Ng5 response to the two-knights wins atleast a pawn (even if the fried liver is avoided). The only time I've found two-knights to be reasonable for black is if they play the Traxler correctly, but this is rare.
Is there a good reason that I'm overlooking, especially a slightly abstract (for me currently) idea like getting initiative or gaining space?
Thanks!