Whites position is HORRIBLE. I capitalize it because it is that bad. The queen and bishop are both hanging, and both cannot be saved. So...all you can do in these types of position is minimize the damage, or resign.
why is white's best move g7g8 here?
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Yeah I see that white's position is bad but given this position, isn't it better to save the queen and lose the bishop rather than trade the queen for a rook?
If the resulting position is actually better for white by trading the queen for the rook, is this something you would expect a beginner to recognize?
Dec 4, 2020
0
#4
CombativeRailway wrote:
Yeah I see that white's position is bad but given this position, isn't it better to save the queen and lose the bishop rather than trade the queen for a rook?
If the resulting position is actually better for white by trading the queen for the rook, is this something you would expect a beginner to recognize?
Did you read my post, and play through the lines i gave?
IMBacon wrote:
Whites position is HORRIBLE. I capitalize it because it is that bad. The queen and bishop are both hanging, and both cannot be saved. So...all you can do in these types of position is minimize the damage, or resign.
Well, you've definitely shown the position sucks for white. That said, neither position looks especially worse to me than the other. Not even a full point's difference by the chess.com analysis, which while not the end be all, can generally handle clear positions. It actually rates running with the queen a little better. Both seem to be accepting losses in different places for damage control and both seem lost for white assuming black doesn't do something stupid.
Switching from eval points to just regular chess points for those eyeballing the board. The ideal position from you says they lost 5 points, 4 from the queen/rook exchange and soon another point when the pawn drops. King gets stuck in the middle.
Bad position loses about 4 points, 3 from the bishop dropped and 1 from the doomed c pawn. The king is going to run to f2 to avoid both forks.
I can't see what lines Stockfish offered to Railway, and I'm not saying that the engine is wrong with the best move, but the lines you mention don't lead a clear display of one move being superior to the other, not without a lot more understanding about the differences of the position and how to exploit them than has been mentioned so far.
Dec 4, 2020
0
#6
catmaster0 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Whites position is HORRIBLE. I capitalize it because it is that bad. The queen and bishop are both hanging, and both cannot be saved. So...all you can do in these types of position is minimize the damage, or resign.
Well, you've definitely shown the position sucks for white. That said, neither position looks especially worse to me than the other. Not even a full point's difference by the chess.com analysis, which while not the end be all, can generally handle clear positions. It actually rates running with the queen a little better. Both seem to be accepting losses in different places for damage control and both seem lost for white assuming black doesn't do something stupid.
Switching from eval points to just regular chess points for those eyeballing the board. The ideal position from you says they lost 5 points, 4 from the queen/rook exchange and soon another point when the pawn drops. King gets stuck in the middle.
Bad position loses about 4 points, 3 from the bishop dropped and 1 from the doomed c pawn. The king is going to run to f2 to avoid both forks.
I can't see what lines Stockfish offered to Railway, and I'm not saying that the engine is wrong with the best move, but the lines you mention don't lead a clear display of one move being superior to the other, not without a lot more understanding about the differences of the position and how to exploit them than has been mentioned so far.
I have no idea what engine chess.com uses, but if its saying that the position is even, or close to even???? They seriously need to change it.
i get black +5 with current position and the eval change whether white queen takes rook or saves itself is minimal
as bacon says, all of blacks pieces are controlling squares around a stuck white pig (i mean king)
and unless white plays flawless stockfish moves (which still is -5- which is terrible) the rest of the game the eval jumps astronomically
as bacon says, all of blacks pieces are controlling squares around a stuck white pig (i mean king)
and unless white plays flawless stockfish moves (which still is -5- which is terrible) the rest of the game the eval jumps astronomically
IMBacon wrote:
catmaster0 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Whites position is HORRIBLE. I capitalize it because it is that bad. The queen and bishop are both hanging, and both cannot be saved. So...all you can do in these types of position is minimize the damage, or resign.
Well, you've definitely shown the position sucks for white. That said, neither position looks especially worse to me than the other. Not even a full point's difference by the chess.com analysis, which while not the end be all, can generally handle clear positions. It actually rates running with the queen a little better. Both seem to be accepting losses in different places for damage control and both seem lost for white assuming black doesn't do something stupid.
Switching from eval points to just regular chess points for those eyeballing the board. The ideal position from you says they lost 5 points, 4 from the queen/rook exchange and soon another point when the pawn drops. King gets stuck in the middle.
Bad position loses about 4 points, 3 from the bishop dropped and 1 from the doomed c pawn. The king is going to run to f2 to avoid both forks.
I can't see what lines Stockfish offered to Railway, and I'm not saying that the engine is wrong with the best move, but the lines you mention don't lead a clear display of one move being superior to the other, not without a lot more understanding about the differences of the position and how to exploit them than has been mentioned so far.
I have no idea what engine chess.com uses, but if its saying that the position is even, or close to even???? They seriously need to change it.
I'm saying the chess.com eval says the end boards listed are similar evals to each other, not that white and black are even. So at the end of the position where the queen was given up in your line, it gave -6.94 (r3k1n1/ppp2p1p/2npb3/1B2p3/1P2P2q/P1N2P2/2PP2PP/R1B1K1R1 w Qq - 1 4) where on the position where they tried to save their queen it was -6.49 (r2qk3/ppp2p1p/3p1nr1/4p3/1PbnP2Q/P1N2PP1/2PP3P/R1B1K1R1 w Qq - 1 5)
Dec 4, 2020
0
#9
catmaster0 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
catmaster0 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Whites position is HORRIBLE. I capitalize it because it is that bad. The queen and bishop are both hanging, and both cannot be saved. So...all you can do in these types of position is minimize the damage, or resign.
Well, you've definitely shown the position sucks for white. That said, neither position looks especially worse to me than the other. Not even a full point's difference by the chess.com analysis, which while not the end be all, can generally handle clear positions. It actually rates running with the queen a little better. Both seem to be accepting losses in different places for damage control and both seem lost for white assuming black doesn't do something stupid.
Switching from eval points to just regular chess points for those eyeballing the board. The ideal position from you says they lost 5 points, 4 from the queen/rook exchange and soon another point when the pawn drops. King gets stuck in the middle.
Bad position loses about 4 points, 3 from the bishop dropped and 1 from the doomed c pawn. The king is going to run to f2 to avoid both forks.
I can't see what lines Stockfish offered to Railway, and I'm not saying that the engine is wrong with the best move, but the lines you mention don't lead a clear display of one move being superior to the other, not without a lot more understanding about the differences of the position and how to exploit them than has been mentioned so far.
I have no idea what engine chess.com uses, but if its saying that the position is even, or close to even???? They seriously need to change it.
I'm saying the chess.com eval says the end boards listed are similar evals to each other, not that white and black are even. So at the end of the position where the queen was given up in your line, it gave -6.94 (r3k1n1/ppp2p1p/2npb3/1B2p3/1P2P2q/P1N2P2/2PP2PP/R1B1K1R1 w Qq - 1 4) where on the position where they tried to save their queen it was -6.49 (r2qk3/ppp2p1p/3p1nr1/4p3/1PbnP2Q/P1N2PP1/2PP3P/R1B1K1R1 w Qq - 1 5)
Gotcha...sorry about the confusion.
IMBacon wrote:
CombativeRailway wrote:
Yeah I see that white's position is bad but given this position, isn't it better to save the queen and lose the bishop rather than trade the queen for a rook?
If the resulting position is actually better for white by trading the queen for the rook, is this something you would expect a beginner to recognize?
Did you read my post, and play through the lines i gave?
Yes, I did, but at my skill level I really couldn't say one scenario was much better than the other. Which leads me to my original question is really, what level skill would you expect a player to need to recognize that the queen sacrifice is the "better" move. Because naturally for someone at my level, my instinct is going to try to keep my queen rather than trading it for the rook and "saving" the bishop.
I think others in the thread are also saying that the resulting white positions, when analyzed, aren't very much better one way or the other. So if even an engine can't show a very clear difference, how is a relatively low level player like myself supposed to? (should I be expected to?)
Anyway thanks for everyone's replies. It's interesting anyway.
Dec 10, 2020
0
#11
When you're dead lost, the computer evaluation means next to nothing, since computers don't have concept of practical play, counterplay, or tricky moves - they just find the best move. When you're lost like this (down so much material), just look for an active plan and try to execute it, if there is no forretress.
hello
Actually, as I see it the chess.com engine says Qh6 is best. Qh6 is -6.1, Qxg8 is -7.1.
According to stockfish, white's best move is g7g8, trading the queen for a rook. Why isn't it better to just escape to h6? i played out the next several moves and it doesn't seem worse than losing the queen. True, white queen is kind of out of play for a while if black is making best moves to put pressure on the king. But would you recommend g7g8 here for a beginner player?