Consider the sequence in the Ruy Lopez:
Still, Black has developed two pawns and forced White to move its bishop twice if Black then plays b5. At the very least Black has restricted White's queenside movement.
Still, Black has developed two pawns and forced White to move its bishop twice if Black then plays b5. At the very least Black has restricted White's queenside movement.
"Developed" two Pawns? Are you sure you know what the word "development" means?
Forcing the opponent's Bishop to move again means nothing if the time so gained is used to weaken your position instead of strengthening it. Black's Pawn advances on the Queen's side are by no means uniformly advantageous. Pawn advances always involve making concessions, and usually create targets. In this case:
Concessions: After the ... b5 move, the squares a6 and a5 can never again be guarded by Black Pawns. The squares c6 and c5 have been weakened, and since it is almost certain that Black will move his d-Pawn forward, the c6 square can be considered to be a hole that cannot be guarded by Pawns. The h1-a8 diagonal has also been weakened by the Pawn advance. This is not just an abstract point... consider the following line:
The weakness created by the b7-b5 Pawn advance is glaringly obvious in this example.
Targets: In the Ruy Lopez, White often plays a2-a4 breaking against the advanced b-Pawn, which cannot exchange or advance without conceding control of important squares (such as c4) and lines (such as a4-e8).
Hi
It's not necessarily losing a tempo that is the issue. It is falling behind in development compared with your opponent.
I would like to see more discussion on my original question. By people who are actually willing to speak intelligently, instead of with sarcasm and insults.
I would like to see more discussion on my original question. By people who are actually willing to speak intelligently, instead of with sarcasm and insults.
Blueemu already explained it: these pawn moves do not necessarily develop anything. Often they just create weaknesses. Blueemu gave a good example, but look at the equivalent on the kingside: if you want to force away the Bg5, you have to play h6 and g5. Casting short suddenly becomes very risky, because the King has no pawn protection there.
@Sred, Not neccessarily, of course of all of these moves are theory, and knowing this, the weaknesses you stated are actually strengths in the mainlines of the Ruy Lopez for black as I assume you know. They can become strengths later down the road by accumulating queenside space and pushing b5 and hoping to get c5 so white cannot push for d4, all the while getting tempi from the light-squared bishop. Again this is theory and believe you know this. The weaknesses are not bad, and there is no forced way anybody can take advantage of them even with a4 later on in some lines of the Ruy Lopez, as black likes an open a or b file to take control of, so it is fine with that pawns coming to a6 to b5. However it is true @Sred that they are not developing moves, just moves to allow the light-squared bishop to lose tempi and to gain space for black, in which is the main point of the Morphy's Defense, so it is justified.
@Antonin1957 Those moves were not developing moves, however there are useful moves and those moves are perfectly fine to play. Most people in the Ruy Lopez play the Morphy's Defense, and it is the preferred defense out of it and the Berlin so it is good.
I do think @Blueemu gave a good example, but truly the positions are fine for both players, white may be slighlty better but there needs to be more of imbalances and accumalated advantages for someone to get an advantage in such a theoretical opening such as the Ruy Lopez, no matter what variation it transposes into, for the most part.
Also @Sred h6 and g5 are known moves in the Ruy Lopez, and since both kings castle on the same side in the Ruy Lopez, doing h6 and g5 is fine, the only reason it would seem risky is only if you are not comfortable or don't know how to play h6 to g5. Also there are no distinct ways to take advantage of the pawn structure if people know what they are doing after they play the moves. Now if someone is just pushing pawns that is one thing. However if they are experienced with pushing h6 to g5 and have done it many times before then they would have the understanding of the moves played and would know when it would be safe to play it in a position or not and such is the case in many master games.
@TeacherOfPain, I did not say that these pawns are always weak. They can be. The point is that these pawn moves do not give Black an advantage, otherwise White would never play Bb5. Still they are widely considered Black's best option. It's a structural change that has pros and cons for both sides.
Regarding h6/g5: I did not talk about the Ruy here. Neither did the OP. Of course, depending on the position, h6/g5 may be absolutely fine.
I see early Bc1-g5 and Bf1-b5 by White--and the corresponding bishop moves by Black--quite a lot, even by players at the highest levels of the game. Usually the move pins a knight.
But why? It seems to me that it is very easy for the opponent to attack the moved bishop with a pawn and force it back. This means the bishop has moved twice in the early game, which is something I thought players were supposed to avoid because it wastes a tempo.