Accepted Practice during games

Hi All,

               for my last couple of games, I have taken to having a board set up next to me to follow the moves online. 

I do this so I can play through variations at critical times, as I cannot yet do this in my head or looking at the board (I keep forgetting to take away taken pieces in my head and they tend to influence the sequence).

Is this an accepted practice during a game or not?

Thanks,

Simon.

:) you can do that.

Problem is in fast game is uneffective.

Secondly, when you will play on the chessboard with live opponent, you will not have that option.

It would be nice if you take that under consideration.

I wouldn't say this is an acceptable practice. If it were, chess.com would allow the use of an analysis board during live chess, as they do in online. You are basically using an analysis board where none is allowed.

Have I got this right. Chess.com allow an analysis board during online games (which is all I play at the moment)?

Yes, definitely. That's why you tend to find that people have a much better Online rating than Live.

Over at the right hand side (during the online turn based game) you'll see a link that says 'Analyse'. Click it and it will open a board with your current position so you can play through a few lines before making a move.

Sorry, that's why I assumed you meant during live games (which I would consider cheating). The board is there to be used during online games, so I didn't think you could be talkiing about online.

I have seen the button, but I presumed it was for post game analysis.

I take it then that you input the moves for both white and black on the analysis board?

Yeah it just opens up the board with the current position and you can play out a few moves for both sides to check if your thinking is correct (well, right to the end of the game if you wanted to)

There is also the explore feature. It's an opening book database type thing. It will show you % of success for certain moves as long as you are in a game that has been played in their database. I've read threads on here where people have played through entire games using it. That, in my opinion, is ridiculous.

Personally I don't really use that. I am of the opinion that it is cheating. Not cheating as in breaking the rules as such (though it should be) but cheating yourself. I don't see how anyone can improve by letting a database tell them what their move should be.

Would it not make more sense to only allow the explore feature during unrated games?

It's online chess. You're allowed to use databases, books, as many boards as you like, notes, and several days of analyzing if you want. Just find the best move.

The only things chess.com disallows are chess engines, tablebases and help from other people.

I don't really see how using a database with, millions of games in it, is much different than using an engine. I mean obviously it's different because you are looking at probabilities based on games that humans have played. However, you are still clicking a button and being told what to play.

I think chess.com's rule is based on the idea that books and databases are a kind of note taking, whereas engines calculating on the current position are generated during the game on request and are thus more like assistance. Anyway, that's the rule, like it or not.

Official correspondence chess went for the more consistent option: everything goes.

Definitely not anything goes in official CC. The below is from the official World Correspondence Chess Federation rules.

8. CONSULTATION: 
a. Players are free to consult chess publications or literature, in printed or electronic form. Advise from another chess player is strictly forbidden.

b. The use of a chess engine (such as Chessmaster, Fritz, Rebel, etc.) or any other form of electronic consultation is strictly forbidden.

I suppose they can be interpreted in different ways. The engine use section cannot be disputed. It also says, 'or any other form of electronic consultation'...could this mean database? I don't know.

However, 'Advice from another chess player is strictly forbidden', could be taken in a lot of different ways.

Is asking a GM friend what your next move should be any different from looking up millions of GM games in a database, with the click of a button, and letting that tell you what your move should be?

This is one of the reasons I am using a wooden board.  I understand that analysing positions is controversial but I wanted to keep it all my own brain doing the working out.

I am hoping after a few months I can drop the board and just use my head, to me the goal is to sit across from your opponent (be it in person or online) and use nothing but the board you are playing on and what lies up top.

Using a database is different from using an engine because:

• not sure that you will find exactly same position - as you progress further into the game chances get lower
• even if you find exactly same position in a database it won't tell you what move to play, it just shows what moves have been played in the past but it is up to you to decide if those moves are good or not

Not really. If you are white and it says '75% of the time white played Bd3, he wins' that's not really making the choice. Of course you'd play it.

Anyway, it seems to me that use of a database is against the WCCF rules. I wonder why it's allowed here.

That's correct for the opening. But after that chances to find same position in the database drop pretty fast and approach zero towards endgame. That's what makes it completely different from an engine use when you just feed in whatever position you want.

I've already said its different. I'm just saying that, in my view, it is still allowing a computer to decide your moves. Even if that does stop 10 moves in, it still means you are not choosing the moves yourself for the entire opening. You are choosing whatever the database says is best. That can actually go on much further though. As I said, there have been people on the forum saying they have used it to follow games all the way to the end. I don't think this is playing chess.

Computer decides nothing, database is like a book with games, and books were always allowed in CC. And if someone has followed a game all the way to the end that means his opponent was willingly collaborating.

And again - database doesn't tell you what is best. In most cases it shows few alternatives with percentage of success and percentage of popularity. And in many cases those data don't give you definitive answer. Your example of 75% is a rare exception. Not to mention that database doesn't tell you what move better suits your playing style.

It gives you a statistical guide to a moves success, whether it be 75%, 50% or 30%. A book doesn't take 3million games and tell you, based on those games, which moves were most successful.

How would you interpret the WCCF rules I posted above?

'Any other form of electronic consultation' - it can't be talking about engines because it mentions them specifically. What other form of electronic consultation could it be referring to if not online databases?

I don't know what is WCCF. There is ICCF - International Correspondence Chess Federation affiliated with FIDE. It allows use of databases as do all the CC websites.