Aggresive or Deffensive?

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Avatar of rettdaniel

i try to go to attacking first by trying to control the center although its a little bit harder to do.  i don't want to be on the defensive because i usually make sloppy moves.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:

You mean you can win a chess game without taking any aggressive action?!?


It's quite possible. More often at least some aggressive action will be necessary of course, but that doesn't mean that the winning player can't have played a great defense (prophylaxis) for some or most of the game.

Avatar of Fuego124
Fuego124 wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

You mean you can win a chess game without taking any aggressive action?!?


It's quite possible. More often at least some aggressive action will be necessary of course, but that doesn't mean that the winning player can't have played a great defense (prophylaxis) for some or most of the game.



It's like build a "trap"and wait the enemi who advance in front!no?

Avatar of nuclearturkey
Fuego124 wrote:
Fuego124 wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

You mean you can win a chess game without taking any aggressive action?!?


It's quite possible. More often at least some aggressive action will be necessary of course, but that doesn't mean that the winning player can't have played a great defense (prophylaxis) for some or most of the game.



It's like build a "trap"and wait the enemi who advance in front!no?


Not at all. A player playing prophylactically will basically try to pick out their opponent's best options and literally prevent them. Hoping for your opponent to fall into some sort of trap has nothing to do with it.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:

I don't know what to say to this...


I suspect that's because Elubus's comment is actually probably quite sound.

Avatar of KnightCover

offense sells tickets, but defense wins games.

Avatar of nuclearturkey

It's a nice quote. But if you think about it that's completely wrong. Smile

Avatar of Elubas
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

What is Anand's "style?"

What is Karpov's "style?"

What is Fischer's "style?"

What is Petrosian's "style?"

I seriously doubt you could describe them as one thing. But why is that? Because it's not some one-dimensional thing. It is a culmination of how they use their mastery over a chessboard. If Anand is "styleA" then how could Mr.1200 possibly be a "styleA?" There is more to it than "I like to attack" and "I like to defend" which is a rediculous notion anyway as in chess only the attacker wins.


 ...In many ways, the perfect execution of my style would be a player like Karpov....

I don't know what to say to this...


What?

Avatar of Elubas
AnthonyCG wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:

It's a nice quote. But if you think about it that's completely wrong. 


Fact is you had to finish your opponent after your defense. You had to capture something, you had to threaten something. Post a game where no aggressive action is taken.


Obviously something has to happen, but of course it can just be positional pressure, stuff like that. A strong "defensive" player (probably not the best word) when he gets a positional advantage doesn't (or at least shouldn't!) just sit there waiting for his opponent to attack, when he has no justification to attack. If you win a pawn, yes that pawn can queen and mate, but it's definitley not offensive in the sense of swarming the pieces near the king immediately, and I don't consider someone mating with king and queen vs. king automatically aggressive. They're really called "defensive" because they don't mind defending an attack, at least if the attacker had to sac a pawn or something. A good player in any case will attack when there is a very clear opportunity to do it (but not an unclear sac) but will not try to force the issue, which an offensive player will more likely do.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:

It's a nice quote. But if you think about it that's completely wrong. 


Fact is you had to finish your opponent after your defense. You had to capture something, you had to threaten something. Post a game where no aggressive action is taken.


That post was directed at Knightcover. Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to argue for. Ok, I guess it's not possible to take absolutely no aggressive action at all if you want to be pedantic. But the only thing I've been arguing against is your notion that "only the attacker wins". Just because some capture or threat has been made doesn't mean that the guy who has won because of them had to have played a "pure attacking game".

Avatar of Elubas
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

What is Anand's "style?"

What is Karpov's "style?"

What is Fischer's "style?"

What is Petrosian's "style?"

I seriously doubt you could describe them as one thing. But why is that? Because it's not some one-dimensional thing. It is a culmination of how they use their mastery over a chessboard. If Anand is "styleA" then how could Mr.1200 possibly be a "styleA?" There is more to it than "I like to attack" and "I like to defend" which is a rediculous notion anyway as in chess only the attacker wins.


 ...In many ways, the perfect execution of my style would be a player like Karpov....

I don't know what to say to this...


What?


If you're that good you should be making chess.com videos or something...

Frankly, I couldn't tell you anything you don't already know.

But it doesn't matter anyway. If you haven't already noticed, even the masters have stopped wasting their time on this thread.


Yeah a perfect execution is like a thousand points away. If I gained that much and had the same style of play, just better execution, I guess the style would get more respect, but it's really just how I use the style, not the style itself. Alekhine was aggressive, but he still had positional understanding and that incredible calculation that nobody would dare to consider, and I'm sure a weak player would like to do that (same style) but never comes close, because he doesn't have that calculating power or the positional understanding to get to positions where combinations exist. but the intentions at the basic level are similar.

But that "style" that people like blissturd are describing I think I have, and that's much earlier than GM. I described it vividly, didn't I? And I even mentioned drawbacks that a GM would not have since it's not perfect, like having trouble calculating tactical pawn breaks.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

What is Anand's "style?"

What is Karpov's "style?"

What is Fischer's "style?"

What is Petrosian's "style?"

I seriously doubt you could describe them as one thing. But why is that? Because it's not some one-dimensional thing. It is a culmination of how they use their mastery over a chessboard. If Anand is "styleA" then how could Mr.1200 possibly be a "styleA?" There is more to it than "I like to attack" and "I like to defend" which is a rediculous notion anyway as in chess only the attacker wins.


 ...In many ways, the perfect execution of my style would be a player like Karpov....

I don't know what to say to this...


What?


If you're that good you should be making chess.com videos or something...

Frankly, I couldn't tell you anything you don't already know.

But it doesn't matter anyway. If you haven't already noticed, even the masters have stopped wasting their time on this thread.


Please re-read Elubus's post. You don't seem to understand his point at all. He never suggested he's anywhere near the level of someone like Karpov.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:

When I say "the attacker" I'm not referring to the hacker. I'm reffering to the guy with the current initiative.


I know you are.

Avatar of Elubas
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

What is Anand's "style?"

What is Karpov's "style?"

What is Fischer's "style?"

What is Petrosian's "style?"

I seriously doubt you could describe them as one thing. But why is that? Because it's not some one-dimensional thing. It is a culmination of how they use their mastery over a chessboard. If Anand is "styleA" then how could Mr.1200 possibly be a "styleA?" There is more to it than "I like to attack" and "I like to defend" which is a rediculous notion anyway as in chess only the attacker wins.


 ...In many ways, the perfect execution of my style would be a player like Karpov....

I don't know what to say to this...


What?


If you're that good you should be making chess.com videos or something...

Frankly, I couldn't tell you anything you don't already know.

But it doesn't matter anyway. If you haven't already noticed, even the masters have stopped wasting their time on this thread.


Please re-read Elubus's post. You don't seem to understand his point at all. He never suggested he's anywhere near the level of someone like Karpov.


Yeah, it had nothing to do with me being close to his level, but what I like to achieve in a game is similar (of course not exactly the same, we are all different), but how he does it is still way beyond my level. The way he executes it is different, not so much the style.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:

A game in the hippo - the most passive defense in chess. White errs on move 36. Now Black must become "the attacker" and take advantage.

 


I have no idea what your point is. Did you even read what I wrote?

Avatar of Elubas

Reuben fine said the best idea against hippo like openings was that Bc4 Bf4 setup, but I disagree, as if those center pawns are good for one thing it's blocking out pieces and preventing pawn breaks, which are very hard without a further c4 or f4 (which I think white should do). Because against the hippo it's all about breaking through so what could be wrong with more pawn advances?

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

A game in the hippo - the most passive defense in chess. White errs on move 36. Now Black must become "the attacker" and take advantage.

 


I have no idea what your point is. Did you even read what I wrote?


Geez I give you a game full of manouvering, a wall of pawns, and then the rediculously passive player snapping at White immediately after his mistake 36.Ne1? coming out with two!! queens!! on the board at the same time and you don't get it... 

I don't think I could possibly give a better example.


A better example of what? Remember you're trying to defend your comment "only the attacker wins". Quite clearly that isn't proven by that game as Black played a mixture of attack and defense.

Avatar of Elubas
AnthonyCG wrote:
Elubas wrote:

Reuben fine said the best idea against hippo like openings was that Bc4 Bf4 setup, but I disagree, as if those center pawns are good for one thing it's blocking out pieces and preventing pawn breaks, which are very hard without a further c4 or f4 (which I think white should do). Because against the hippo it's all about breaking through so what could be wrong with more pawn advances?


 I played a KID setup from the White side but I don't know if that's good or not.  


Actually that's usually what I do. I would then get all of my pieces to active squares, rooks to the central files, (this is assuming black doesn't make a pawn advance, if he does, then usually you can advance one of your center pawns with a cramp) and I figure d5 or something could probably eventually be played unlike setups without the bishop pawns forward.

Avatar of nuclearturkey
AnthonyCG wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
nuclearturkey wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

A game in the hippo - the most passive defense in chess. White errs on move 36. Now Black must become "the attacker" and take advantage.

 


I have no idea what your point is. Did you even read what I wrote?


Geez I give you a game full of manouvering, a wall of pawns, and then the rediculously passive player snapping at White immediately after his mistake 36.Ne1? coming out with two!! queens!! on the board at the same time and you don't get it... 

I don't think I could possibly give a better example.


A better example of what? Remember you're trying to defend your comment "only the attacker wins". Quite clearly that isn't proven by that game as Black played a mixture of attack and defense.


The point is that Black didn't only win by shuffling his pieces around. Attacks had to be made. 36...Bxc5 and 55...b4! being very tough to defend.


lol I think there must be a misunderstanding here somewhere. Can't you just agree that your comment "only the attacker wins" wasn't correct? If it didn't mean that attacking is the only way to go then what did it mean?

Avatar of nuclearturkey


Saying "only the attacker wins" seems like a strange way of putting that because just because someone has done a bit of attacking during the game doesn't mean they can be considered an "attacker", but ok sorry, my bad. I guess I've just misunderstood what you meant all along. Smile