Bobby Fischer - The Player, Not the Man

Also keep in mind that Fischer was tested at 180+ IQ - very few of us understand what it really means to be at that level. I surely do not. I imagine the world looks a *little* different when you are that smart.

And Reb, , I'm not saying you are not patriotic, but I would love to hear how sending 20k to a country who attacked us instead of keeping it in America just because you want a better product is patriotic!  In my opinion, it is Japanese auto makers who *caused* the big three to decline. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon for a while and US cars stopped selling as well, and therefore the quality suffered. I agree totally that Toyotas and Hondas are top-notch vehicles that are extremely reliable, but at what cost to American auto-workers?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you weren't following the discussion, and not that you just advocated ignoring the Holocaust in order to claim Hitler as a great man because he had exceptional skill in one area of endeavour. That was the analogy being extended by way of Wagner and Fischer. If you are saying that... well, I leave the floor to you -- not going down that road w/ you. Peace - I'm out.

Hitler WAS a great speaker. Look at his results.

Fischer WAS a great chess player. Look at his results.

It doesn't mean they were good or moral or socially acceptable in the eyes of modern judges. Hitler played a role in something that amounts to the heights of human evil against other humans. Fischer ranted. A rant makes people take a second look at the issues involved. Genocide is something entirely different.

A 180+ IQ is not an excue for being racist.  And secondly it just goes to show that being intelligent doesnt mean you arent ignorant.

And as other posted...i have owned "American" made cars, and the few i have owned have been the least reliable.  I have owned a Toyota Corolla, and a Honda Element and they have by far been a much better investment and far more reliable. 

When American industry can get past the failed policies they use now and get back yo making quality products ill buy American. 

But from what i see it is American companies needing the government to bail them out and still file for bankruptcy, and not Japanese companies.

Now if this in some other peoples opinion make me "Non-American" then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Bobby was autistic. So relax people he was sick.

Where is your source for his autism?  I'm not sure I have heard that, before.  It could very well be, I'm not arguing, but do you have a source that you could cite or link us to? 

As a chess fan who began USCF play just when Fischer was playing Taimanov, you can imagine how I admired him then, then grew frustrated when he dropped out of play, then how I started to despise his racist and political views.

In the end, I found myself forgiving the sins as they were likely the product of mental illness and unhealthy upbringing. Of course, if he were alive I'd trust him as far as I can throw the internet.

He was never exceptional at anything but chess so far as I can tell, phony IQ scores aside, so I concentrate on his chess achievements and feel satisfied nowadays with him on those terms. Kasparov may have even been a better player but it was Fischer who took on the Goliath of the USSR chess system and somehow won. Just incredible.

I can name dozens of American stars (politics, sports, movies, music, etc.) who had similar anti-semitism or anti-American views and there isn't much being said about them.  Why the Bobby bashing?  In my own opinion, he became a hero with his play, a zero with his comments, and this thing of hero-worship and wanting a hero to live up to our expectations is the problem.  Bobby played at an incredible level, and I beleive most fans wanted him to be more like Derek Jeter of the Yankees--respectful, deferential, humble.  But he was Bobby--brash, egotistical, arrogant, obnoxious--and a lot of players will never forgive him for that.  Myself, I study good chess where I find it, and if the player that goes with the play is cool (like H.N. Pillsbury), so much the better.  If the player is not cool (Fischer, Alekhine), the games are still beautiful.  And one last point--who among us could have thier whole life exposed to public review and judgement, and come out of it with dignity intact?  Not many, I'm afraid.

I like your comments, dashkee94!  Your words are filled with more truth than some folks can even grasp. There are not many of us who are at such an exceptional level at anything as to warrant being in the public eye.  Therefore, there is really no way to say how we would react when certain things came to light, or in certain situations.

Thanks!  Great insight. 

Bobbys brashness, cockiness,egotisical ways,and need to wear designer suits all stem from insecurity issues, and a desire to feel needed and accepted.  As much as he was a chess genius, he was just as much greatly immature.  He was an adult that threw temper tantrumsm when he didnt get his way or what he perceived as being slighted.  Or as todays kids love to say "disrespected"

Of course I'm not saying that you should ignore the Holocaust. I'm saying that the holocaust is no reason to ignore the man's brilliance. I'm saying you ignore that the man created the holocaust if that troubles you in learning their methods.

Let me propose a different (actually, not that different) hypothetical. Suppose an evil man (like Hitler) conquered most of the world with his revolutionary battle tactics (sounds a bit like chess, eh?). Would we not be complete fools to ignore the brilliance of his tactics (n.b. Nazi tactics were in fact pretty impressive, with of course several notable failures, but the point is that there's plenty to learn about them) and not employ these tactics, just because "that's what Hitler did and he was evil". The tactics exist independant of who did them, on and off the chessboard, and if we don't learn from them, other people will, and will defeat us.

I get the point, that we can't disconnect the man from his actions, even if brilliant.

I also fully understand that if an evil chef cooked me the finest meal, I might just lose my appetite.

Ahhh, but you wouldn't if you didn't know it was an evil chef. THAT is the point. You can ignore the brilliance if you want, but skill, knowledge and wisdom comes from learning from mistakes (in yourself and others) and recognising successful strategies (in yourself and others) and if you ignore success and mistakes by people that you find distasteful, you'll learn less.

But no one is ignoring successes and mistakes, right?

The people that say Hitler's millitary tactics, oration skills, Wagner's musical skills and various other similar things should not be learned from are, yes.

 Ah well I would say those people are lightweights...whoever they are.

My ideal is: I am safe for all ideas. I'll filter and evaluate out of an informed position.

good to hear

Being great at one skill or endeavour will never give anyone carte blanche to enjoy the title of great human being. It does not, no matter how you laud the skill in question.... that was the post of my two previous posts.

Bajoran_Moon: I never said that this made Hitler a great man (if you think I did, point it out). I said to study their techniques and greatness (at, say, chess, oration, millitary tactics), and not ignore them because of their flaws in other areas of life. I am undecided as to whether Fischer was a great man or not - all men, no matter how great, have their flaws (though I'll concede that Fischer's flaws are bigger than most).

I never said I think you did... I was only pointing out what I was speaking to, that my point was limited to the issue of what makes a human being great.