Can't win on time with the sole King ?

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Zigwurst
Guy837 wrote:

France sucks!

You suck!

mrhjornevik
ViktorHNielsen wrote:

If white loses on time in this position, it is also a draw, since no serie of legal moves will checkmate white:

 

how is that true? As long as one black pawn remains there is a serie of moves that can checkmate king?

Jimmykay
mrhjornevik wrote:
ViktorHNielsen wrote:

If white loses on time in this position, it is also a draw, since no serie of legal moves will checkmate white:

 

how is that true? As long as one black pawn remains there is a serie of moves that can checkmate king?

look carefully at the position. With white to play, make the worst possible moves for white, and try checkmate with black.

windmill64

I wonder if the OP is more or less confused now after asking the question.

mrhjornevik
Jimmykay wrote:
mrhjornevik wrote:
ViktorHNielsen wrote:

If white loses on time in this position, it is also a draw, since no serie of legal moves will checkmate white:

 

how is that true? As long as one black pawn remains there is a serie of moves that can checkmate king?

look carefully at the position. With white to play, make the worst possible moves for white, and try checkmate with black.

white only have one move? But I did not think the computer cared? I just assumed it counted the pices and as long as black had more then just one knight or bishop a win was awarded? 

Zigwurst

The computer isn't "smart" enough to adjudicate the position correctly according the the Laws of Chess.

Jimmykay
Zigwurst wrote:

The computer isn't "smart" enough to adjudicate the position correctly according the the Laws of Chess.

Two points:

1) What makes you say this? Is this from a real game on chess.com, or are you just making assumptions?

2) I believe that this is a draw according to USCF rules, but a win according to FIDE rules. I explained why I think that and pointed to the resource from the USCF website.

mrhjornevik
Zigwurst wrote:

The computer isn't "smart" enough to adjudicate the position correctly according the the Laws of Chess.

my point :) 

Still no way for black to win. But the computer wont "know" before the pawns clash. (sorry this was the best I could come up with, some of you might create a better no win senario). 

Question is, how many moves ahead does the computer count before it decides that there is no win?

ThrillerFan
Zigwurst wrote:

Post #7 if White runs out of time on an automated server then it would be scored as 0-1, although in the rules of chess that should be 1/2-1/2

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard!

If White runs out of time, Black has sufficient mating materal, which means it's a win for Black.

The definition of sufficient mating material depends on USCF vs FIDE.

USCF: Player with time still on the clock has anything OTHER THAN a lone King, a King and a Bishop with no forced checkmate, a King and a Knight with no forced checkmate, or a King and Two Knights with no Pawn for the opposing player and no forced mate, and he wins.

FIDE:  Player with time on the clock has any material that can lead to a possible mate, even if help mate, and he wins.  So in FIDE, K and LSB vs K and DSB is a win for the player with time left on the clock as you can set up a mate with such material, but if each player has a King and a Bishop and the Bishops are on the same color square, it's a draw as mate is impossible.

Gil-Gandel
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zigwurst wrote:

Post #7 if White runs out of time on an automated server then it would be scored as 0-1, although in the rules of chess that should be 1/2-1/2

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard!

If White runs out of time, Black has sufficient mating materal, which means it's a win for Black.

The definition of sufficient mating material depends on USCF vs FIDE.

USCF: Player with time still on the clock has anything OTHER THAN a lone King, a King and a Bishop with no forced checkmate, a King and a Knight with no forced checkmate, or a King and Two Knights with no Pawn for the opposing player and no forced mate, and he wins.

FIDE:  Player with time on the clock has any material that can lead to a possible mate, even if help mate, and he wins.  So in FIDE, K and LSB vs K and DSB is a win for the player with time left on the clock as you can set up a mate with such material, but if each player has a King and a Bishop and the Bishops are on the same color square, it's a draw as mate is impossible.

That's as may be, but in the position given White has no legal move other than to checkmate Black at once - meaning that there is no possible way for Black to win. In that case the material does not matter.

Zigwurst

I said that according the the the real rules that it should be a draw. But the computer arbiter doesn't understand the nuance and would award the win.

Read things through and think before you say somebody is stupid.

Jimmykay
  • To quote the relevant Fide rule:
  • 6.9      
  • Except where one of Articles 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by thatplayer. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.
Zigwurst
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zigwurst wrote:

Post #7 if White runs out of time on an automated server then it would be scored as 0-1, although in the rules of chess that should be 1/2-1/2

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard!

If White runs out of time, Black has sufficient mating materal, which means it's a win for Black.

The definition of sufficient mating material depends on USCF vs FIDE.

USCF: Player with time still on the clock has anything OTHER THAN a lone King, a King and a Bishop with no forced checkmate, a King and a Knight with no forced checkmate, or a King and Two Knights with no Pawn for the opposing player and no forced mate, and he wins.

FIDE:  Player with time on the clock has any material that can lead to a possible mate, even if help mate, and he wins.  So in FIDE, K and LSB vs K and DSB is a win for the player with time left on the clock as you can set up a mate with such material, but if each player has a King and a Bishop and the Bishops are on the same color square, it's a draw as mate is impossible.

You literally said that I was wrong then repeated exactly what I said.

pt22064
Zigwurst wrote:

The only legal move is 1.Kxc7#

But if white flags

then the game is drawn

since Black can't win

because white's only move wins by force

The actual Board position is irrelevant.  The question is whether the material remaining is theoretically capable of resulting in checkmate.  3 pawns (or even a single pawn) is theoretically capable of producing mate, and therefore there is no draw.  The fact that the other player has a mate in 1 is irrelevant.

windmill64

FIDE wording states" legal series of moves". So in that diagram, what series of legal moves can black checkmate white? Whites only move is Kxc7#. No legal series of moves in that position allows black to mate white.

Zigwurst

@windmill64 just explained what I said in a more clear manner.

Read FIDE's wording on the "Insufficient material to checkmate" rule, and the others relevant.

AllanJones
SilentKnighte5 wrote:

We're overlooking what's really important here.  OP has no clue how to win with a K + R v K.  It's not that hard.

No, I know how to mate with K+R. I just ran out of time and I panicked :-)

But without panicking and some useless stupid moves, I would have had enough time to mate.  ;-)

AllanJones
Guy837 wrote:

France sucks!

???

mrhjornevik
Steve212000 wrote:
AllanJones wrote:
Guy837 wrote:

France sucks!

???

I thought Paris is one oif the great cities of the world??

Berlin, Rome and London all beat Paris :) 

AllanJones

I personally don't like Paris. I lived there 10 years...