cheater's using progs...
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Nov 12, 2007
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#23
"Posting a suspected game for public evaluation is all I'm recommending."
I don't see anything at all wrong with that.
"The proper term would be libel"
Since postings can be altered or deleted unlike fixed media, I would consider them closer to the spoken word than the printed word. Shrug.
"As long as the poster does not present the person as a cheat, but the game as a possible example of a computer player, I wouldn't think it defamatory. "
The distinction seems rather moot to me, unless there's an honorable computer player.
DeepNf3 wrote: I have my on method when it comes to trying to avoid playing potential cheaters, I mostly look for players who had played more that 30 games with lower than an 82%, I am not saying that players who do higher than 82% are cheaters, I am just saying that I rather play the ones who do lower than 82% just to be on the save side, this site is great, but nobody can stop people's temptations of using chess computers specialy as soon as they see that you are handling the game correctely, I had a guy tell me that i was using a computer just because my opening followed the book, I told him I was an above expert level player once rated above 2150 FIDE, it was clear to me that he didn't believe me and immediately started using his computer program against me, well there is nothing you can do when that happens, just lose that game and move on to the next one
I used to be an absolute paranoid when it came to cheaters whenever I played online. I would never play anyone without carefully checking their game history. Rather than avoiding those who were obviously cheating, I got to the point where I would only play those who obviously weren't. In hindsight this was not healthy for my play. I wasn't playing nearly as much I would have liked(in fact during one year I played a total of 43 games online!), and when I did play I wasn't playing my best because I was too worried that my opponent might be cheating. I also made a lot of false accusations. I would tell my opponent they were clearly cheating and then I would report them to the site administration. However, when I later calmed down and analyzed the game with fritz it usually became obvious that my opponent was as human as I.
Then one night at a local chess club I was discussing the problem with another player I was friends with. Unlike me he didn't worry about cheaters online. Not only did he manage to play hundreds of games, but he did so on yahoo, which doesn't police cheating at all. In my paranoid little mind this was akin to chess suicide. He told me that yes, there will always be those who cheat, but the vast majority of people don't, and when you find someone you think is, just don't play them anymore.
To shorten a already long story, I adopted my friend's attitude and just started playing without worrying. I played lots of games against players of all rating without having to check them all out first. Yes, I have and still do run into cheaters now and again, but just as my friend pointed out, they are a small minority. Of course I hate playing cheats, but when it happens I'm able to quickly let it go and get back to playing.
That being said, I do believe it is important for online playing sites to take steps to weed out the obvious cheats. Those that cheat in every move every game usually stick out like sore thumbs, but it is still important to confirm this through game analysis. That is best left to the site administrators, since as I learned it is very easy to throw around false accusations.
I have played tens of thousands of games online and thousands more in real life. I have never once been convinced that my opponent was cheating.
IndridCold, can you give me an example of obvious cheating that you've witnessed in your play?
NathamCrewott wrote: batgirl wrote:
"That's why I suggested that someone who really fears they'd been swindled should post the game in which they believe it occurred. "
There's nothing wrong with posting a "suspected" game for public evaluation.
But that's not what you suggested, sic: "Why aren't suspected cheaters named in these threads?"
If you're playing OTB and suspect someone of cheating, I imagine you would talk with the TD or whomever is available and convey your suspicions, letting them investigate the matter discreetly. If you are suggesting emulating an OTB scenario, then you would message the game location to the administrators, not post a potentially innocent person's name. The false accusation of a misdeed, even later recinded, is generally as damaging as one that is true. The potential to accuse people publically can only lead to misuse and the practice is a form of McCarthyism.
There's no fight here, just apparently opposing opinions.
I think I should have explained my point better in my first post. Posting a suspected game for public evaluation is all I'm recommending.
Better I think would be to submit a suspect game to site officials. I don't like the witch hunt mentality that comes with public speculation. For example, just today I was looking at the games of two players on this site who were relativley new and had nearly 100% wins. It would be easy to list these two players in the forums as possible cheats. When I analyzed a few of their games it turned out that one player probably is cheating, since in all his games his moves matched the computers first choice. However, the second players games were full of small mistakes, which means he is almost certainly just a good player. Accusing both players just on the fact that they had high win percentages would have been a mistake.
Edit: I should have added that accusing either player in public would be a mistake. I said that the first player was probably cheating, but I still wouldn't start telling everyone "hey, this guy is a cheat." At most I would forward my concern to the site admins and let them investigate further.
I'm curious as to what makes people so paranoid about this - besides the obvious fact that it happens.
And believe me when I say paranoid.. I don't mean to degrade the people that are indeed paranoid about cheating... I just wonder what makes some people worry about it so much and then there are.. what I feel are probably the majority of people who share the outlook that Indridcold describes.
It's not that I don't care at all.. I would seriously rather my opponents never use computer help. Perhaps I've just grown accustomed to losing. I don't play OTB tourneys, and I don't belong to a club. Ratings have never meant a whole lot to me. So I'm a little curious as to the mindset.
Is it people's ratings that they are protective over? Is it simply the individual games that are of such importance that it is worth all the consternation? Perhaps some people put so much effort into their games that they feel it a colossal waste of their time and energy playing against an opponent that was never going to lose in the first place.
All this is fine and good, and I'm not trying to poke fun at people who take internet games so seriously. This site is about fun and chess improvement for me, if it's about more than that to other people, than that is perfectly fine. I'm just wondering it seems some people get so heated over the subject.
Nov 12, 2007
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#28
"Better I think would be to submit a suspect game to site officials"
I totally agree with that. I don't see anything wrong with posting a game for evaluation (without menioning the contestants names) but I also so see much value in it.
"I just wonder what makes some people worry about it so much."
I guess partly because of the reasons you enumerated and partly from a sense of justice. I think some peple may feel that to just let someone (who they are convinced is cheating) continue in the same manner is a form of complicity.
I'm more concerned that the cure may be worse than the disease.
rybka
Nov 12, 2007
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#30
last_file wrote: Yes, it's very annoying. If I wanted to play a computer I would use a program. I will no longer put a game out as an open seek, because I can't tell their win/loss percentage. I will just wait till I see a player above my level with a history of wins and losses that is looking for a game.
well what I do instead of going to open seeks or putting a challenge out there is I go to players and look for players with an lower than 82% who would be rated somewhere above my actuall rating, also when you see a seek you can click on the player itself instead on the view and find out what his percentage is, once again I am not saying that those who do higher than 82% are cheaters, I just have to have to some kind of method to keep my chess.com experience enjoyable and as far away from cheaters as possible
the problem with cheaters is that they are so much of a cheater they always think that everybody else is a cheater and as soon as they see somone making good moves -there they go!..-, some cheaters also believe that they are good players and that it would not be fair to them to lose to who in their cheater minds are worse players than he/she is, there is a whole article somewhere in the internet about the cheater mind, actually written by a cheater himself with the help of psychologist
http://www.geocities.com/area51/Realm/8655/ENGLISH/Part8_ENG.htm
"Since postings can be altered or deleted unlike fixed media, I would consider them closer to the spoken word than the printed word. Shrug."
Point taken.
"The distinction seems rather moot to me, unless there's an honorable computer player"
My point was mainly that the game be the focus of discussion rather than pointing fingers.
I don't really mind as long as its advertised. Like, in the name or something.
Nov 12, 2007
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#33
"My point was mainly that the game be the focus of discussion rather than pointing fingers."
Then you and I agree.
I wish there was a sonic boom button that would detect these cheaters and would cause their computers to fry or their ears to become booming with sonic boom, LOL. Yes, there are cheaters on this site and yes they cheat themselves, their opponents and the game itself. If a computer beat the top chess players in the world, then what about us struggling chessplayers? I guess the only way to deal with these folks, since the SONIC BOOM is not operational is to play 1-3 minute games, where they wouldn't be able to check their computer generated moves nor take vacations when they're getting whooped. Anyways, don't get wrapped up in ratings, as we don't play ratings we play for competition and to get better. And these computer generated moves might assist us in live tourney's as opposed to these losers who have to resort to computer assisted moves. Until then, let's work on the SONIC BOOM, smile.
Just looking at win-loss percentage to identify cheaters, atleast for beginners, is meaningless. For example, I won all my games so far (because I played a number of beginners and also won a few that were timed out), although I am in a losing position in three of my current games. Whenever I see a topic on cheaters, I feel like people will look at my current win-loss and think I am a cheater too. For whatever reason, it really bothers me.
Is there a way, all the games played at Chess.com could be put through some kind of chess engine that would figure out who the cheaters are?
Just looking at win-loss percentage to identify cheaters, atleast for beginners, is meaningless. For example, I won all my games so far..
Yes, looking at one's win/loss record is a poor way to find cheaters. I'm in the same boat and I'm certainly neither a computer nor a world champion in disguise. But I sometimes play weaker players to help them improve.
Nov 12, 2007
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#37
"When I'm white, I win because I have white. When I'm black I win because I'm Bogoljubow"
"When I'm white, I win because I have white. When I'm black I win because I'm Bogoljubow"
That's one of my all time favorite chess quotes. 
batgirl wrote:"When I'm white, I win because I have white. When I'm black I win because I'm Bogoljubow"
I had to do a Google search on the quote to figure out who Bogoljubow was. I too like this quote
As I mentioned in my opening post, I don't see it going on so much(HERE), BUT MORESO WITH OTHER SITES, bringing attention to specific instances and posting them on threads is a good idea. Thanks for all the input. I just want to say that this site has very quality players and the overall interface and extras is very good compared to other sites I've been to.
Good chess to All!
"If you suspect an opponent has used a computer, why not post their name and the game and let the community decide if you claim has any merit?"
Slander might be a good reason not to do that.
The proper term would be libel, but I wouldn't consider the posts to be so at all. As long as the poster does not present the person as a cheat, but the game as a possible example of a computer player, I wouldn't think it defamatory.