Chess and mental health (depression)

I'm sorry to hear it. The World is not a place that encourages confidence in the future. When I was about 14, my dad, who was an intelligent guy, said he felt bad about bringing me into the World because it was going downhill fast, he thought. My reaction was that I told him thanks but not to worry. I told him I felt it wouldn't affect me but it would affect my children and their children very much.

I'm afraid you have to learn to accept it. After my mother died ten or eleven years ago I was helping my dad sort stuff out and I found a list. A long list that she's written, full of things that he had to remember to do .... ever day, every few days, every week and so on. And randomly, around number 17, in capitals, was "BE HAPPY".

In 1940 her brother was shot and killed. Her father, who had been orphaned at about 6 years old, went to pieces and developed a mental illness which was with him for two or thre years. Her elder sister was away, maybe working in London. At 15 and a half my mother held her parents together. She knew that you can be happy if you decide to be happy. It's a choice but sometimes it's a difficult one.

Yours is the only life you have. You don't have to make the very best of it. Just be happy and stop worrying so much.

joined 4 days ago.  the addiction isn't adding up

I'm glad it helped. If I could have found better words, it would maybe have helped more.

I'm going to say it.

In before lock

thanks for the preamble.

It won't be locked.

#22
"Links to said research?"
++ That was an article featured on ChessBase.
In a mental institution part of the patients were made to play chess and a control group not.
Those that played chess were reported to get some improvement of their condition.

Not the point at all. That was a general sample and this is a specific situation. It's quite easy to tell that playing more chess is not the solution to complete apathy regarding chess, which is what this is.

Lol...still no link, but more importantly, where did "but chess attracts people that are susceptible to develop mental problems" come in?  I would suspect it was not from the Chessbase article ...

#43
From the same article.
You surely know enough about computers to search it.
There is a higher prevalence of mental illness among chess players.
Besides that article also '"The Psychology of the Chess Player" by Psychiatrist Reuben Fine said the same.
Chess does not cause or worsen mental illness, it is even beneficial.

You seem to have a continuing problem with taking single individual's opinions as scientific fact .  

If there's an actual study, I'll take a look at it.

Having just thought about it for a minute, I tend towards the opinion that it isn't true and also, that such a study couldn't be standardised in any way. People sometimes develop "mental problems" under stress and chess puts people under some mental stress. It can also be the cause of introspection, since it drags people into their mental world and can confront them with outward success or failure on the basis of choosing moves in a game that can be very difficult.

Although it was "anecdotally true", certainly here in England, that chess playing could be associated with mental instability and perhaps attacted people who were likely to develop it, there's probably nothing scientific and properly conducted to support it. Psychedelic drugs would have been thought of in the same way, just for one example. I think also homosexuality, at least back in the days when it was the object of heavy prejudice. I suppose all three of these could be considered "minority interests", which may also have some bearing on why they were considered so.

But I have known a number of people, who were keen chess players and have commited suicide. Four right away off the top of my head but I think more, that I've forgotten about. Two of them very strong players, one strong club strength and one who played on the second or third team of a strong chess club.

#45
Fine was both a chess player and a professional psychiatrist. He quit chess at the height of his career to devote himself entirely to psychiatry. He wrote the book I mentioned.
Many top chess players suffered from mental problems and Fine discussed those cases in his book. He also explains why it is like that in his book.
Psychology is no exact science, but the more recent study with control group is considered scientific in that discipline.

What I was trying to say, but perhaps didn't sufficiently emphasise, is that perhaps all people have a possibility of mental illness and that chess can trigger it, where it wouldn't be triggered otherwise. It would be difficult to control a study properly, to determine whether people prone to it are particularly attracted by chess. If all people are prone to it, depending on circumstances, then it wouldn't be the case that it attracts people who are prone to it.

Maybe the truth is halfway, somewhere. I also tend towards the idea that perhaps it does attract such people and that such people do exist. However, I think it would be down to opinion and very hard to prove. I also think it's true that some people are much more resilient against mental illness than others. Anyway, possibly we shouldn't be using this thread to discuss the subject. Neither of us are experts and we're discussing an area of particular expertise.

#48
The authors of the scientific paper and dr. Fine are experts.

Conclusions:
There is more mental illness among chess players than in the general population.
Chess does not cause or trigger mental illness, on the contrary it is beneficial.
Chess attracts people susceptible to mental illness.

Anecdotal:
I have played over the board against two players later admitted to a mental institution: one national champion and one county champion.
Once a team match was organised  between a university and a mental institution, the mental institution won.
The prevalence of tuberculosis in the USA is highest in Utah. Does the climate there cause or trigger tuberculosis? No, on the contrary: the desert climate is beneficial to tuberculosis patients and for that reason many tuberculosis patients moved over there.

What papers?  What conclusions?  Still no links/references/excerpts/quotes.  You'll have to pardon me if I don't take your word on what Reuben Fine said or believed...you're the same guy that said that Sveshnikov could solve chess in 5 years based on an offhand comment he made during an interview.  Fine wrote a comprehensive endgame book, which is sitting on my shelf, but I don't know if his psychiatric career was noteworthy in any way.

You didn't even back up your Utah/tuberculosis link.  Which needs backing up, by the way...because as of 2018, Alaska had the highest tuberculosis rate, Hawaii second, with Utah nowhere in sight.  This stands to reason since the TB vaccine was not as ubiquitous outside the mainland United States.  Now I am guessing you are going to continue to equivocate about what you meant by "prevalence"...there's plenty of info online about TB in Utah, but I don't see anything that backs up your claim.  Which is exactly why you need to back up the things you are saying, because for all we know your cousin Joe told you something he heard on a podcast over the holidays.

There are a number of good chess players in prison, too.  The reasons are obvious enough for any "institution" that limits the comings and goings of its residents.  Does that mean there's a link between chess and criminal behavior?  It's pretty funny that you used the Utah example to show that causality is not always apparent and should be scrutinzed, then violated your own premise by assuming causality (re: mental institution > university) using a single anecdotal occurrence.

This isn't a thread that should be turned into a debate. However, in the interest of common sense and honesty, it should be recorded that the conclusions tygxc mentions are unsafe.

Anything stressful can trigger mental illness.
Chess can be stressful.
Therefore, chess can trigger mental illness.

That's all there is to it. Fine's conclusions are worse than unsafe: wrong and downright dangerous, whilst tygxc's logic is appalling.

Sorry about this and after the inevitable defensive broadcast, we should leave this thread to do its proper job, although perhaps its work has been done. Thanks to the O.P. @Katzenliebhaber, to whom I send my best wishes for happiness both to you and, presumably, your cats.

I actually agree, ergo the the effort to debunk this line of thought.  We have enough problems with Hollywood's obsession with the myth that genius is akin to madness.  There's no need to perpetuate something that is purely confirmation bias.

"Famous people are more likely to commit suicide!"

"Why do you think that?"

"Because everyone I hear about that has committed suicide is famous..."

Can't even think about chess.