Chess.com banned Hans after beating Magnus. Why?

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Avatar of Giusti825
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:
Giusti825 wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:
Giusti825 wrote:
indian_pooop wrote:

Chess.com is and has been biased to the point of being dead wrong when top players complain aka magnus and hikaru. 

This has been known since time imemmorandum

I think we are getting into a bit of a chicken and egg argument here.  

Technically speaking, Magnus has not accused Hans of cheating, so chess.com took action before a top player complained about an opponent cheating.  However, I believe Hans may have been banned before Magnus even made the tweet, which leads me to believe that someone may have tipped Magnus off that Hans' play didn't pass the algorithm sniff test which lead to Magnus' withdrawal from the tournament.

 Again, the only thing chess.com can do is analyse the OTB games with an engine, and that's not enough proof in a OTB game between super gms because it's unsurprising super gms will play engine-like variations, which they very likely even prepare with ENGINES.

 

 How on earth can chess.com use anything else to detect cheating in the OTB tournament? How can they measure other stuff such as mouse moves, clicks, focus events, etc, in an OTB tournament? Do you click on something when you move a piece in a real board? Do you move an imaginary mouse and the piece moves by itself? Do you alt-tab in real life? Why is it so hard to understand?

 

 Once again - engine analysis is not enough to detect cheating at that level in an OTB tournament. If you told me it was a long time control match between XQC and Ludwig and they played a 60 move game and one of the scored almost 100% engine move matches, then I would be inclined to say it's OTB cheating SOMEHOW, but at the super gm level? Nope. 

 This has already happened in the match between Kramnik and Topalov and engine analysis alone was not enough. Chess.com does not have anything ELSE to analyse from the SL OTB tournament.

Ive posted this video about 3 times already so here's a fourth.

Fair play explained by Danny Rensch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvySXCNfd8

 

Try watching the video.  Chess.com doesn't just "look at an engine" to determine fair play violations.  There is an algorithmic and statistical model involved that puts them at mathematical certainty a violation has occurred BEFORE taking any action.  It's been outside audited and determined that it will stand up in court.

 

What a silly take.  If all chess.com did was "look at an engine" and ban anyone who plays top moves, almost every player would be banned instantaneously.  It might be a bit more complicated than that.  

 

Watch the video and get an idea of how the process actually works before saying that they just "look at an engine."

 Again with that crap? Statistical analysis of one single match such as the Hans vs Magnus match? Impossible. It's just one match.

 And as I said, people have tried to use statistical models to prove Kramnik cheated and it was obviously not enough because there was no evidence of cheating. So even if an statistical model shows something, they could not act on it. 

Then Hans will sue chess.com and win easily, right?  I'd bet he doesn't take it to court.

Avatar of xor_eax_eax05
Giusti825 wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:
Giusti825 wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:
Giusti825 wrote:
indian_pooop wrote:

Chess.com is and has been biased to the point of being dead wrong when top players complain aka magnus and hikaru. 

This has been known since time imemmorandum

I think we are getting into a bit of a chicken and egg argument here.  

Technically speaking, Magnus has not accused Hans of cheating, so chess.com took action before a top player complained about an opponent cheating.  However, I believe Hans may have been banned before Magnus even made the tweet, which leads me to believe that someone may have tipped Magnus off that Hans' play didn't pass the algorithm sniff test which lead to Magnus' withdrawal from the tournament.

 Again, the only thing chess.com can do is analyse the OTB games with an engine, and that's not enough proof in a OTB game between super gms because it's unsurprising super gms will play engine-like variations, which they very likely even prepare with ENGINES.

 

 How on earth can chess.com use anything else to detect cheating in the OTB tournament? How can they measure other stuff such as mouse moves, clicks, focus events, etc, in an OTB tournament? Do you click on something when you move a piece in a real board? Do you move an imaginary mouse and the piece moves by itself? Do you alt-tab in real life? Why is it so hard to understand?

 

 Once again - engine analysis is not enough to detect cheating at that level in an OTB tournament. If you told me it was a long time control match between XQC and Ludwig and they played a 60 move game and one of the scored almost 100% engine move matches, then I would be inclined to say it's OTB cheating SOMEHOW, but at the super gm level? Nope. 

 This has already happened in the match between Kramnik and Topalov and engine analysis alone was not enough. Chess.com does not have anything ELSE to analyse from the SL OTB tournament.

Ive posted this video about 3 times already so here's a fourth.

Fair play explained by Danny Rensch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvySXCNfd8

 

Try watching the video.  Chess.com doesn't just "look at an engine" to determine fair play violations.  There is an algorithmic and statistical model involved that puts them at mathematical certainty a violation has occurred BEFORE taking any action.  It's been outside audited and determined that it will stand up in court.

 

What a silly take.  If all chess.com did was "look at an engine" and ban anyone who plays top moves, almost every player would be banned instantaneously.  It might be a bit more complicated than that.  

 

Watch the video and get an idea of how the process actually works before saying that they just "look at an engine."

 Again with that crap? Statistical analysis of one single match such as the Hans vs Magnus match? Impossible. It's just one match.

 And as I said, people have tried to use statistical models to prove Kramnik cheated and it was obviously not enough because there was no evidence of cheating. So even if an statistical model shows something, they could not act on it. 

Then Hans will sue chess.com and win easily, right?  I'd bet he doesn't take it to court.

How would I know? Why are you asking me? Send a message to Hans, wtf.

Avatar of ViktorVoid

Shame, chess.com.

Shame!!

Avatar of Giusti825
tactixianchess wrote:
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:

- When Nakamura cried on his stream a guy had cheated playing him, chess.com immediately banned him, and then had to go and unban him and issue a public apology because they checked him and he was innocent. They just banned him because HIKARU SAID SO, not because he was found cheating. 

No, the account wasn't closed but the individual game was aborted and Naka was awarded a win. That wasn't "chess.com" doing that either, that was one of Nakamura's corrupt moderators who he now no longer works with. Immediately after that event moderators were stripped of their ability to do this anyway.

I have full faith in chess.com's cheat detection, it is the best in the world by far. If Hans is telling the truth that his account is shadowbanned then I have absolutely do doubt he cheated somewhere (whether that is in online games or OTB is a matter between Hans and the site)

Definitely not the best in the world "by far." I have reported obvious cheaters multiple times and yet they still run rampant on the site - only because they use lower-depth Engines differing from the usual Stockfish or Komodo. The inhuman consistency with moves and time taken should be enough for Chess.com's automated cheat detection to pick up on, but for whatever unknown reason, even after being tipped off by a report no action has been taken. I even requested for human assistance from Chess.com's specialized cheating investigation team (keep in mind each account has over 1000 games played) and yet there is only radio silence on these clearly illegitimate accounts. I suspect that Chess.com's anti-cheating measures are not as comprehensive as they advertise to be and more of an intimidation effect to discourage cheating. I don't necessarily disagree with Chess.com doing this, but it is misleading towards the players who expect action from  "the world's best moderation team".

Danny Rensch speaks on this in this video.  He states that the biggest criticism chess.com gets is that it is slow to action.  They don't ban people unless they can mathematically prove they were cheating; but when they do ban someone, it's because they are so certain that they would stand by the ban in a courtroom if necessary.

 

Fair play explained by Danny Rensch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvySXCNfd8

Avatar of DiogenesDue
tactixianchess wrote:

"given enough sample size" Did I not say one game?

Everything else you said is, in fact, a load of crap, and does not relate to your last sentence.

So if you write:

"Water comes from an alternate universe and phases into existence when it rains.  Water is sentient and knows which way it supposed to go to reach the ocean.  Water is also necessary for human survival."

...I am going to call that a load of crap despite the last sentence wink.png.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:

  Ok but how does that apply here? As you've said they wont play 100% engine moves. What will happen is they will play at a slightly lower level so any engine analysis is inconclusive at Super GM level. Was this move in this variation played OTB because he was cheating or because he actually saw it, or prepared for it beforehand (with the help of an engine)? You can't tell. 

 So engine analysis will be inconclusive of cheating unless the supergm is a moron at chess and, like you say, plays 100% engine moves. And they may be really stupid at everythign else, but super gms are not stupid at chess so they will never such thing. 

 I seriously doubt Hans played at 100% accuracy the entire game against Magnus. So it's inconclusive. Which is what happened in the match between Kramnik and Topalov when they tried to use statistics to prove "cheating" even when they had not been able to catch Kramnik cheating at all.

Neither he nor Carlsen played anywhere near 100% in that game.  This particular thread is about Chess.com banning Niemann, *not* a single game.

Avatar of tactic
btickler wrote:
tactixianchess wrote:

"given enough sample size" Did I not say one game?

Everything else you said is, in fact, a load of crap, and does not relate to you last sentence.

And in what way is it a load of crap? Your argument is in itself contradictory. You haven't even stopped to check the accuracy of the game between Hans and Magnus, have you? Mistakes and blunders were made by both sides, and yet you're making an ignorant assumption that Hans played perfectly. It was an otherwise surface-level legitimate game caused controversy by Magnus' withdrawal from the tournament along with a tweet otherwise implying that Hans cheated. The game itself was not suspicious, but only after Magnus's reaction did people start to make unjust and rather defamatory accusations against Hans. 

Avatar of DiogenesDue
stopvacuuming wrote:

he didnt do anything close to that lol he made plenty of "mistakes" by stockfish standards and being in the top 3 doesnt actually mean anything if first best is winning and third is a blunder still

You all need to be more perceptive and realize which thread you are posting on.  Unless Chess.com says they circumvented their process in this one specific case, we are not talking about a single game's analysis.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
tactixianchess wrote:

And in what way is it a load of crap? Your argument is in itself contradictory. You haven't even stopped to check the accuracy of the game between Hans and Magnus, have you? Mistakes and blunders were made by both sides, and yet you're making an ignorant assumption that Hans played perfectly. It was an otherwise surface-level legitimate game caused controversy by Magnus' withdrawal from the tournament along with a tweet otherwise implying that Hans cheated. The game itself was not suspicious, but only after Magnus's reaction did people start to make unjust and rather defamatory accusations against Hans. 

Once more, with feeling:

This thread is about whether Chess.com banned Niemann, and why (and possibly exactly when).  It is not about the Magnus game.

Avatar of tactic
btickler wrote:
stopvacuuming wrote:
btickler wrote:
tactixianchess wrote:
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
xor_eax_eax05 wrote:

 Once again - engine analysis is not enough to detect cheating at that level in an OTB tournament.

Citation needed, because the experts disagree with you.

Engine analysis is not enough for a conviction. It is a well known fact that students often take on the style of their coaches - if you are a Junior and grow up on Stockfish analysis, who's to say you won't take on a style resembling Stockfish? You can't determine if someone is cheating from a single game.

That's a load of crap.  It is all but impossible for a human being to play out a full chess game playing all Stockfish's top moves (and it has never happened).  You need to read up on statistical chess analysis applied to cheat detection.  It is foolproof, given a large enough sample size.  One game is not enough, true enough, but the assertion that "coaching' yourself with Stockfish could allow you to play engine moves consistently is ludicrous.  You cannot "take on a style" and play like Stockfish.

Do you think a 100% accuracy score means you played exactly like Stockfish would have?  It means nothing of the kind.  Super GMs are capable of about 80% engine top moves, and only in very clear situations.

 

he didnt do anything close to that lol he made plenty of "mistakes" by stockfish standards and being in the top 3 doesnt actually mean anything if first best is winning and third is a blunder still

You all need to be more perceptive and realize which thread you are posting on.  Unless Chess.com says they circumvented their process in this one specific case, we are not talking about a single game's analysis.

Chess.com is known for circumventing the process to immediately jump on cheating controversies advocated by big named affiliated influencers such as Magnus, Hikaru, Levy, etc. Play Magnus recently partnered with Chess.com which could be another reason for the ban. I'm not saying the Play Magnus directly advocated for the ban, but Chess.com might've banned Hans looking to strengthen their partnership with Play Magnus. Regardless of if their decision is correct a company on the scale of Chess.com should not be making these decisions sporadically - especially when the outcome is unclear.

Avatar of tactic
btickler wrote:
tactixianchess wrote:

And in what way is it a load of crap? Your argument is in itself contradictory. You haven't even stopped to check the accuracy of the game between Hans and Magnus, have you? Mistakes and blunders were made by both sides, and yet you're making an ignorant assumption that Hans played perfectly. It was an otherwise surface-level legitimate game caused controversy by Magnus' withdrawal from the tournament along with a tweet otherwise implying that Hans cheated. The game itself was not suspicious, but only after Magnus's reaction did people start to make unjust and rather defamatory accusations against Hans. 

Once more, with feeling:

This thread is about whether Chess.com banned Niemann, and why (and possibly exactly when).  It is not about the Magnus game.

It is about the Magnus game. You clearly know nothing; why after Hans cheated online when he was 12 and 16 years old was he only given a slap on the wrist and a new account, and only immediately after the controversy surrounding the Magnus game they revoke partnership and ban him? It is not a coincidence.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
tactixianchess wrote:

Chess.com is known for circumventing the process to immediately jump on cheating controversies advocated by big named affiliated influencers such as Magnus, Hikaru, Levy, etc. Play Magnus recently partnered with Chess.com which could be another reason for the ban. I'm not saying the Play Magnus directly advocated for the ban, but Chess.com might've banned Hans looking to strengthen their partnership with Play Magnus. Regardless of if their decision is correct a company on the scale of Chess.com should not be making these decisions sporadically - especially when the outcome is unclear.

No, they aren't known for that.  What they are known for is sometimes taking advice on suspect accounts, and applying the full rigor of their process sooner than later.

Avatar of tactic
btickler wrote:
tactixianchess wrote:

Chess.com is known for circumventing the process to immediately jump on cheating controversies advocated by big named affiliated influencers such as Magnus, Hikaru, Levy, etc. Play Magnus recently partnered with Chess.com which could be another reason for the ban. I'm not saying the Play Magnus directly advocated for the ban, but Chess.com might've banned Hans looking to strengthen their partnership with Play Magnus. Regardless of if their decision is correct a company on the scale of Chess.com should not be making these decisions sporadically - especially when the outcome is unclear.

No, they aren't known for that.  What they are known for is sometimes taking advice on suspect accounts, and applying the full rigor of their process sooner than later.

What do you mean they aren't known for that? You're straight up denying well-documented evidence? There's plenty of unfounded accusations thrown by a certain twitch streamer that resulted in multiple accounts banned (and unjustly). There's mentions of this in the thread.

Avatar of TheSoccerGod4321

Honestly, I don't know why Hans got banned. From what I heard, he cheated on chess.com, but I doubt that's true. I don't think such a big chess grandmaster would do such a thing. I don't want to be involved in any fights that happens on this topic, so peace out!

Avatar of Nopenotthistime

Good Job banning him Danny! No room for cheaters in the chess world! 

Avatar of ChesswithGautham

@TheloniusMoke

Avatar of kAtalan_csaT

I support Hans Niemann!

Avatar of AussieMatey

The only way Hans is cheating is if he has Stockfish implanted in his head and is using it very i-n-t-e-r-m-i-t-t-e-n-t-l-y.

Avatar of SMesq

Avatar of fluffywhether

Hikaru just posted a video of this recent game with Hans, with a neat trick at the end 

I don't have the skills to know if this move was easily findable?

 

https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/live/53635781955?tab=analysis