Chess.com Ratings are a JOKE

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adg4071

all cheating

 

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

It was around 49 games bud.  I said an almost 50 game win streak.  The point is he has pages of nothing but wins.   He only lost 4 in his first 100 games by your own admission.  Again I think you are simply in denial.  He is a real world example that proves your assertions wrong.  There was nothing quick about him getting back to his more accurate and prior rating.  

Okay bud ...

His longest streak in Blitz is 19 games.
His longest streak in Bullet is 22 games.
His longest streak in Rapid is 32 games.

He does not have a single 50-game streak in any single time control.  Now, he might have had a streak across time controls, but each time control has its own rating (for a reason!).  His blitz rating seems to be the one you are most concerned about.  This is how his progression went:

Starting rating:  400
After game 1:  580 (+180)
After game 2:  706 (+126)
After game 3:  795 (+89)
After game 4:  832 (+37)

He was over 1000 by his 8th game (when he lost to a 900 and dropped 50 points).  By his 23rd game, he was over 1400.  Now, you can make the case that they tweaked his RD a bit too fast, but the pattern of accelerating to his strength is consistent with how the Glicko system works (his main problem was being stuck playing people in the 400-600 range when he was over 900 ... and then losing a few games to players in those lower rating bands).  Saying "there was nothing quick about him getting back to 2200+" is asinine.  That is what happens when you lose!

And saying "he only lost 4 in his first 100 games" ... where do I start.  If you are actually strong enough to beat a GM (which he did around game 190ish), you never lose to someone below 1500.  Losing not 1, but 4 games to players in the sub-1500 range indicates he is not as strong as his current rating.  To put it in perspective, almost any random NM can play a 20 board simul against players in the sub-1500 range and not even draw a single game.  So losing 4 games to players in that range when it was not even a simul but a single game breaks your assertion about his strength entirely.  The same issue comes up when he got to the 1800-2000 range where he lost a ton of games (players that are actually 2300 should win roughly 98% of their games against 1900s).

As you said before, his previous account was banned for fair play, so his previous rating is irrelevant and useless (and looking at his games, you can make a case his current rating is equally as meaningless - especially considering his OTB rating is 1427 USCF).

 

Gigabyte_Malware

Let's Turn This Into An International War

Steven-ODonoghue
PawnTsunami wrote:

As you said before, his previous account was banned for fair play, so his previous rating is irrelevant and useless

No, his previous account was banned because of something inappropriate he said/did on the forums. He is not a cheater

sndeww
TheBullyMaguire wrote:
nMsALpg wrote:
TheBullyMaguire wrote:

I Can beat the 1600 chess bot every other round. And do 2100 rated puzzles. 

That's about right for 1100 lol.

Puzzles and bots are massively overrated.

How are bots massively overrated when they are literally programmed to reflect a certain skill level? 

I think it's pretty obvious that, when you consider that there's constantly reports of someone 800 points lower rated than daniel naroditsky bot defeating him soundly, that the bot ratings are completely unreliable.

And you can't really program a bot to perform at a certain level.

sndeww
Jimemy wrote:

I mean for a normal game you gain like +8 (once rating is moving normaly) for a win. This is a problem only if you are creating a new account. So therefor comes the question, why did he get banned?

He was banned for not being very nice to another member. I don't really wish to say any more without his permission.

sndeww
PawnTsunami wrote:

The same issue comes up when he got to the 1800-2000 range where he lost a ton of games (players that are actually 2300 should win roughly 98% of their games against 1900s).

As you said before, his previous account was banned for fair play, so his previous rating is irrelevant and useless (and looking at his games, you can make a case his current rating is equally as meaningless - especially considering his OTB rating is 1427 USCF).

 

I agreed with everything about your post except the parts i didn't cut out lol.

As a 2300 in blitz, I cannot maintain a 98% win rate against people rated 1900 in blitz. I believe the first time I played an untitled tuesday, I immediately lost to a 1900 in the first round (I think I was 2200, but it's close enough (?) ). Although I do agree that I'd win most games, just not up to 98%. In otb, though, I think it would be completely reasonable.

Ive looked into kowarenai's otb games (he blogs). I think he plays otb like he plays bullet. Move the bishop three times. Threaten checkmate in one. Oh, he saw that? Now what? Hmm... 

Also, he wasn't banned for cheating.

PawnTsunami
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:

No, his previous account was banned because of something inappropriate he said/did on the forums. He is not a cheater

My mistake - though it wouldn't surprise me.  1400 USCF in classical, and 1500 in blitz (though it will jump up to 1700 on July 1 as he had a good event recently) and 2200+ online and beating GMs is highly unusual to say the least.

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel PawnTsunami napsal:
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:

No, his previous account was banned because of something inappropriate he said/did on the forums. He is not a cheater

My mistake - though it wouldn't surprise me.  1400 USCF in classical, and 1500 in blitz (though it will jump up to 1700 on July 1 as he had a good event recently) and 2200+ online and beating GMs is highly unusual to say the least.

he spends a lot of time on this site, not only for playing but even for chatting with people and so .. so I am not surprised at all that his rating is higher here than irl and also you can't compare classical with blitz online... thats totally different time control... 

PawnTsunami
B1ZMARK wrote:

As a 2300 in blitz, I cannot maintain a 98% win rate against people rated 1900 in blitz. I believe the first time I played an untitled tuesday, I immediately lost to a 1900 in the first round (I think I was 2200, but it's close enough (?) ). Although I do agree that I'd win most games, just not up to 98%. In otb, though, I think it would be completely reasonable.

Ive looked into kowarenai's otb games (he blogs). I think he plays otb like he plays bullet. Move the bishop three times. Threaten checkmate in one. Oh, he saw that? Now what? Hmm... 

Also, he wasn't banned for cheating.

Granted, there is more variability in blitz, but in general a 400 point rating gap means you would expect the higher rated player to win roughly 98% of the time (obviously, in practice this doesn't always work out - but the point is you would expect players 2300+ to have a very large score against 1900s ... and literally never lose to 1200s, 900s, or 800s).  When he was playing people in the 1800-1900 range, he was roughly equal for quite a while.  1800 online is more reasonable for someone who is 1400 OTB (as online ratings tend to be slightly higher than OTB ratings).  2300+ for someone that level is not expected.  For reference, there is a kid at the local club who is 2182 OTB (18 points shy of NM) and his ratings on this site are roughly 2400 (he can hit 2500 on a good day).  So, 200 points difference between players online when over 800 points separates them OTB?  Very odd.  So, getting "back to his level" was actually done very fast - he got to ~1800 in under 75 games.  You cannot really expect more when you lose to much weaker players along the way.

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

You really going to make me look at his account again?  lol.   You already admitted he only has 4 losses in 75 or 100 games.   I've already stated it took him around 200 games and two weeks to get back to his previous rating.  Creating new accounts can have a negative affect whether intentional or not and I'm not sure why you are defending such actions.    The kid should have chose expert or whatever the highest rating option was when he was creating his account,  you are still in denial.   He didn't quickly get to his previous rating.  Many people listen to the myths you spew and think he is going to get there in 20 games.  Thats not how it works in reality and he is the perfect example.   

 Lichess has a better system.

You can go look all you want.  He doesn't have anything close to a 50-game winning streak in any time control.  When chess.com gives you a second chance account, you do not get to pick the rating.  It starts at the lowest one.  Would have it been better if they had started him at the Advanced setting (1800)?  Maybe, but that is not the fault of the system.  LiChess and Chess.com literally use the exact same mathematical system.  The only difference is how they configure it.

And no, I was not claiming "he'll get to his rating in 20 games".  I was saying he would get there quickly as long as he keeps winning.  It take much more time when you lose (the same thing happens on LiChess, by the way).

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

on lichess I checkmated a dude over 2000 once in a tournament and I wasn't even rated 1100.  The guy immediately left the tourney after that lol.   I don't see why it would be unusual for a 2200 to beat a GM one time.    We aren't talking about robots,  pardon the pun,  we are assuming we are talking about human players.    The guy is 2200 rated player. But if something fishy happened in the match report it.    We are breaking TOS by making accusations.    Keep the discussions to the ELO system in general.

Not violating TOS - simply stating it is highly unusual and losing to lower rated players is a big part of WHY it took him 2 weeks to get back to 2200+.  And it wasn't just beating a GM 1 time.  He has done it quite a few.  If you've never played a GM in blitz, you do not understand.  The likelihood of someone who is 1500-1700 in OTB blitz beating a GM in blitz is about as likely as a 2200 beating Magnus in blitz.

But again, to the main point, when you lose and your RD is high, you lose more.  When you win, you win more.  As you play more games, your RD comes down.  Thus, when you have a provisional account and you lose to a very low rated player, it is going to start trying to stabilize you around that level.  You do not expect someone who is actually 2300+ to ever lose to anyone below 1500.

PawnTsunami
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

he spends a lot of time on this site, not only for playing but even for chatting with people and so .. so I am not surprised at all that his rating is higher here than irl and also you can't compare classical with blitz online... thats totally different time control... 

Not comparing to compare the raw numbers, but an indication of actual playing strength.  And his OTB blitz rating is much lower than his online blitz rating as well.  That was kind of the point.  CooloutAC was complaining that it took him too long to reach his "actual strength" - looking at his games (both online and OTB), his online ratings appear to be highly inflated, so he likely reached his actual level pretty quickly (in my estimation, roughly 75 games in the blitz time controls).

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel PawnTsunami napsal:
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

he spends a lot of time on this site, not only for playing but even for chatting with people and so .. so I am not surprised at all that his rating is higher here than irl and also you can't compare classical with blitz online... thats totally different time control... 

Not comparing to compare the raw numbers, but an indication of actual playing strength.  And his OTB blitz rating is much lower than his online blitz rating as well.  That was kind of the point.  CooloutAC was complaining that it took him too long to reach his "actual strength" - looking at his games (both online and OTB), his online ratings appear to be highly inflated, so he likely reached his actual level pretty quickly (in my estimation, roughly 75 games in the blitz time controls).

You are saying that his actual level is his OTB rating but I don't think so because from what I know about him he plays much more online than irl

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

 yes it is the fault of the system that it is even an option to choose your own starting rating.  Maybe he didn't know which one to pick,  which is what he claimed to me.   He was on my friends list till I saw that, i immediately removed him.

Thats what you call quickly?   2 weeks and 200 games?     I just looked at his account and all I saw was pages and pages full of wins.  I lost count.  You said yourself he had 4 wins in 75 matches.  come on dude.... what is wrong with you?  I have had people literally tell me 20 games,   because that is usually the amount of games for an evaluation on most sites and You are implying it is no different here.  When clearly it is.

Again, that is what happens when you lose.  That isn't the fault of the system.  The RD will continue to come down as you play more games.

For example, suppose you were ~2000 strength.  You create a new account and select "beginner" because you want to do a speedrun.  You are not expected to come close to losing a game until you start playing people over 1500.  So, as long as you win, your rating will continue going up quickly.  Once you lose, it will start to "wiggle".  If you look at his rating graph, you see just that:  it basically shoots straight up and then relatively flat.

It isn't just the number of losses, but the rating of the opponents you are losing to.  If his first opponent was rated 2000 and he won, his rating would have jumped several hundred points (just like it does on LiChess).  His first opponent was rated 500, so it didn't jump quite as much.  His first loss was to an 800.  Again, you do not expect someone whose actual strength is 2200+ to ever lose to an 800.  Statistically, you have a better shot at winning the MegaMillions while holding a winning Powerball ticket with a Sharknado swirling around you.

PawnTsunami
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

You are saying that his actual level is his OTB rating but I don't think so because from what I know about him he plays much more online than irl

I'm saying it is highly unusual to have such a large gap between the two.  He literally just played in an U1600 G/25+5 event a couple weeks ago and went 3/5.  Not a bad score (though he lost rating points in it), but not one you would expect for someone with a 2200+ online rating either.  I expect online ratings to be higher than OTB (you can play more games, makes sense).  I don't expect to see a 1400 player OTB beating NMs, FMs, and GMs in blitz online.  The point being that complaining that it took him too long to reach his "actual" rating is a bit silly when he reached it pretty quickly if you expect him to really be around 1800-2000 online.

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

Again, people are not robots. Its foolish to assume they will play like they are.  Everyone should start at the mid rating like they do on lichess.  THe results are better imo.  You originally claimed everyone started at 1200 here.  you were wrong about that too...

That is not at all what I said.  I said that they way Chess.com configured their rating system, they expect the mean to be 1200.  LiChess has theirs set such that they expect the mean to be 1500 (that is why LiChess starts you out with a 1500 provisional rating).  You can make the case that Chess.com should do that (they used to actually - but that was before they released version 2 of the interface).  But the underlying system is the same - you are literally just crying over how someone gets sorted at the beginning.

And not to be mean, but I don't expect someone rated 600 to really grasp what it is like to play a master.  They got there because they know, see, and understand things well beyond what a 1400 player can keep up with.  Sure, they are not robots.  But when you have built up the habits, knowledge, and skills to achieve master status, it is several levels higher than an average tournament player (which is what 1400 is).

CooloutAC wrote:On another note I just checked my insights.   It does seem that the 400-499 section in blitz was my hardest.  Which is what I assumed.  Once I got over that hurdle it was alot easier.    I recently crashed and burned 200 rating points after getting to almost 800 rating points and haven't recovered since.  800 is probably the next hurdle.  But  Part of my issue now is also due to the fact I recently got an e-board and have been playing more 30 mins matches, even dabbling with it in blitz which is not a great idea.   lol

Frankly, if you are looking to improve, I wouldn't recommend playing blitz or bullet.  But that is another topic entirely.  Once you have an established rating (i.e. your RD is low), you are only going to get about 8-10 points per win against people similarly rated.  So if you suddenly have a breakthrough (maybe you were practicing tactics and things finally started to click), it might take you 10-12 games to break into 900 or 1000.  If you stopped playing for a while, your RD would go up, and when you came back (with the same epiphany) it may only take you 1-2 games to make the same rating jump.

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel PawnTsunami napsal:
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

You are saying that his actual level is his OTB rating but I don't think so because from what I know about him he plays much more online than irl

I'm saying it is highly unusual to have such a large gap between the two.  He literally just played in an U1600 G/25+5 event a couple weeks ago and went 3/5.  Not a bad score (though he lost rating points in it), but not one you would expect for someone with a 2200+ online rating either.  I expect online ratings to be higher than OTB (you can play more games, makes sense).  I don't expect to see a 1400 player OTB beating NMs, FMs, and GMs in blitz online.  The point being that complaining that it took him too long to reach his "actual" rating is a bit silly when he reached it pretty quickly if you expect him to really be around 1800-2000 online.

I don't know anything about how long it took than he did reach something..
I am just saying that he is a type of person who
1) plays chess fast, with focus on time, trying to trap his opponent in some tactic what would be too cheap too be useful in long games but is quite strong in blitz..
2) he plays chess much more online than irl
these two things are enough for me to explain why when he played 25+5 he had worse score than when he plays here blitz and also why he is only 1400 USCF, his blitz game style is just terrible in long time control and also he doesn't play enough irl games to his irl rating would be accurate
If you are not satisfied with this explanation and do you think that he cheated somehow its your thing.. but its only a pure speculation and nothing more and this website doesn't much like speculations about cheating

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

again you are showing a lack of sports sense and human nature.  More games means more games to tilt.  For most of us,  it is natural to lose more the more we play.    You seem to believe it is the opposite for most people.   Thats simply not true.   Also many people play completely different online then they do OTB.  Many OTB players don't even want to play online.    If you have been watching the recent SCC events you will hear these things being discussed.   You must practice each to be in top form in each and Kowarenai is an online player mostly, and the GM player he played maybe is not?    I'm sorry i bought the guy up at this point.  

Not at all.  I just know what it is like to play against masters.  You can be a "blitz specialist" all you want - there is still a massive knowledge gap there.

CooloutAC wrote:

The point is he is an example for you of how the rating system does not quickly evaluate people to their most accurate estimation.   two weeks, 200 games bud.  100 of which were mostly win streaks.  There is nothing strange about his profile,  its what happens in those situations.    Get over it.  Its a problem in the community. 

The rating system measures past performance in an attempt to get you into competitive matches as quickly as possible.  Chess.com lets you pick where to start (except for second chance accounts) where LiChess just assigns it at 1500.  You seem discouraged that someone could be really strong and pick 400 only to crush the lower rated players for a while before reaching their actual level.  How is that much different than having those same lower rated players start at 1500 and get crushed by actual 1500s for several games before they finally get down to their actual level?  The system cannot look into your mind and figure out where you belong - all it can do is measure your performance.

You seem to think this is a major problem, but the irony is the system you recommend (the one LiChess uses) is exactly the same.  The only differences are where they configured the expected mean and where they start your provisional rating.  The end result is the same:  you play games and your rating goes up when you win, down when you lose.  So, to borrow your closing:  get over it.

PawnTsunami
CooloutAC wrote:

No,  that is not what you said at all.  You wrongly assumed everyone started at 1200 rating.   But as you have learned,  people can pick their own ratings starting at 400.    Kowarenai didn't even start at 1200 he started at 1400.      Now on the contrary everyone on lichess does indeed start at 1500.  And Yes I'm making the case that chess.com should too.  Welcome to planet earth where the two systems are completely different. 

My rating level is irrelevant to the discussion.  It is you who doesn't grasp common sports sense or human nature.   It has nothing to do with chess buddy.  lol.   No matter how high your rating is feeding your ego and superiority complex,   it isn't gonna help you realize this apparently.    This discussion can apply to any game.

 

If someone is looking to improve,  they should play whatever time control they aspire to and prefer.   Because unlike your false belief,  chess doesn't mean OTB classical for most of us.  Nor does it correlate to online chess.   People can study, do lessons,  puzzles, analyze and practice in any time control they like.

And just like its hard to adapt and be good at multiple time controls for the majority of people,  which is something you don't understand,  the same can be said of many regarding online vs otb.

 

I will make it easy for you since you seem to have a hard time here:

PawnTsunami wrote:
TheBullyMaguire wrote:

I am 1100 rating.
Or so I thought…
After making a different account than my main one, 15 matches later, I am 1700 rating.

This demonstrates a misunderstanding of how the Glicko rating system works.  When you create a new account, it assumes your first rating but gives you a very high rating deviation (RD).  The RD will remain high until you have enough recent games to get you in the correct rating band. 

So, if you started an account at 800 (at one point you could actually create one at 800, 1200, or 1800 - not sure if that is still the case) and played a game against another 800 and won, your rating would jump to ~1150.  If you played a game against an 1100 next, and won, your rating would jump to roughly ~1500.  If you played a game against a 1500 next, and won, your rating would jump to ~1750.

Does this mean you are as strong as 1700s?  Your highest rated opponent was 1500, so no.  If you played a 1700 next, and lost, your rating would drop back to ~1500.  When your RD is high, it means the system does not have a high level of confidence in your current rating (your RD will also get higher if you don't play for a while).  The goal is to get you into a rating band where your opponents will be roughly your same skill level.  As you improve, your rating will go up.

This "second account" experiment is flawed because your second account does not have enough games to stabilize your rating (i.e. get your RD low).  That usually starts to happen after you have a directional shift (i.e. if you lost a bunch of games and then started winning some, the same result happens in the opposite direction).

The problem with bots is that they do not make "human" mistakes.  The problem a lot of people have with puzzles is, since they know there is a tactic in play, their tactical vision is more acute than it is in a real game.  For example, I've seen kids with 3000+ puzzle ratings but 1600 OTB ratings.  So you should expect your puzzle rating to be significantly higher than your playing rating.

Also, keep in mind the rating system is purely about sorting the players in that pool.  So, an 800 on chess.com means that you are competitive with other 800s on chess.com and would almost always lose to someone in the 1200+ ratings (as you can see from the way the rating system works above, if you play other people with high RDs, this results in wild swings in ratings for a while).

And no, BOTH chess.com and LiChess use the Glicko system (Glicko 2 to be exact).

I wasn't bringing up your rating to insult you, nor to make myself feel better.  I was doing it as you were asserting "people aren't robots" as if a 1400-rated player would ever beat a GM.  To put it in a another sports analogy:  it would be like your local high school football team beating an NFL playoff team - or hell, even the worst NFL team.

And feel free to continue believing that you can improve that way.  Good luck!