Chess is not an art

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Avatar of DrSpudnik
Idrinkyourhealth3 wrote:

I'll elaborate my opinion here:

Art is not a well defined field. Everything can be considered art, It is so subjective that It is almost entirely dependant on your angle of approach.

From a logical perspective, there is no logical reason to counterpose logic-related(objetive) vs art-related(subjective). They are 2 different angles of approach and not necessarily contradicting or opposed to each other(but could be). From a logical perspective everything is logic related and built. The art itself is a logical thing. Logically speaking its an expected combination of errors or any kind or deviation of a standarized perspective, taking a scientific reference point. I allow myself making the assumption that any kind of deviation is expected in any complex system that is evolving. "Art" could just be considered a fancy word for It, giving value to certain kind of deviation that may trigger emotions (dopamine release) in a part of a brain and marketing It like a subjective beauty, with a meaning..and calling It 'art'

From a completely artístic point of view(which is imposible, because everything including the words and language form of expression is logically designed so its just not possible to separate logic from art bc art itself is described by logic with logic-made tools in a world sustained by logic ): art is kind of chaos (and chaos is another fancy word in the definition of entropy(a scientific term)) .I definetely could be wrong, so this description is art. I am art. Everything is art

If everything is art, nothing is art. If art is everywhere, it is not special. Art is not chaos. Art produces or reaffirms meaning for those who interact with it. Logic may or may not have anything to do with it.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
DrSpudnik wrote:
Idrinkyourhealth3 wrote:

I'll elaborate my opinion here:

Art is not a well defined field. Everything can be considered art, It is so subjective that It is almost entirely dependant on your angle of approach.

From a logical perspective, there is no logical reason to counterpose logic-related(objetive) vs art-related(subjective). They are 2 different angles of approach and not necessarily contradicting or opposed to each other(but could be). From a logical perspective everything is logic related and built. The art itself is a logical thing. Logically speaking its an expected combination of errors or any kind or deviation of a standarized perspective, taking a scientific reference point. I allow myself making the assumption that any kind of deviation is expected in any complex system that is evolving. "Art" could just be considered a fancy word for It, giving value to certain kind of deviation that may trigger emotions (dopamine release) in a part of a brain and marketing It like a subjective beauty, with a meaning..and calling It 'art'

From a completely artístic point of view(which is imposible, because everything including the words and language form of expression is logically designed so its just not possible to separate logic from art bc art itself is described by logic with logic-made tools in a world sustained by logic ): art is kind of chaos (and chaos is another fancy word in the definition of entropy(a scientific term)) .I definetely could be wrong, so this description is art. I am art. Everything is art

If everything is art, nothing is art. If art is everywhere, it is not special. Art is not chaos. Art produces or reaffirms meaning for those who interact with it. Logic may or may not have anything to do with it.

If everything is art, and nothing is art, does that mean everything is nothing?

Avatar of Optimissed
lfPatriotGames wrote:
DrSpudnik wrote:
Idrinkyourhealth3 wrote:

I'll elaborate my opinion here:

Art is not a well defined field. Everything can be considered art, It is so subjective that It is almost entirely dependant on your angle of approach.

From a logical perspective, there is no logical reason to counterpose logic-related(objetive) vs art-related(subjective). They are 2 different angles of approach and not necessarily contradicting or opposed to each other(but could be). From a logical perspective everything is logic related and built. The art itself is a logical thing. Logically speaking its an expected combination of errors or any kind or deviation of a standarized perspective, taking a scientific reference point. I allow myself making the assumption that any kind of deviation is expected in any complex system that is evolving. "Art" could just be considered a fancy word for It, giving value to certain kind of deviation that may trigger emotions (dopamine release) in a part of a brain and marketing It like a subjective beauty, with a meaning..and calling It 'art'

From a completely artístic point of view(which is imposible, because everything including the words and language form of expression is logically designed so its just not possible to separate logic from art bc art itself is described by logic with logic-made tools in a world sustained by logic ): art is kind of chaos (and chaos is another fancy word in the definition of entropy(a scientific term)) .I definetely could be wrong, so this description is art. I am art. Everything is art

If everything is art, nothing is art. If art is everywhere, it is not special. Art is not chaos. Art produces or reaffirms meaning for those who interact with it. Logic may or may not have anything to do with it.

If everything is art, and nothing is art, does that mean everything is nothing?

Um ... logically if everything exists then nothing exists if we go down that line. Yet every thing that IS a thing does exist. From our perspective, everything could be art?

Avatar of isolani-d4

It is both. You can't have one without the other. Look up Mandelbrot fractals. And that is why a sunset or a woman's face ... it all is beautiful, as is all Pattern Groups in chess (my opinion only). Mandelbrot Set is used for art but it simply IS mathematical.

ADDED: If you've never seen some of the incredible patterns generated by this tech, do yourself a favor and take a look. I see a lot of similarities in chessboard complexity.

Avatar of Optimissed
Kenji129_4 wrote:

Chess is only art above 2500, the gm's. we just blunder every game

GMs obviously blunder too. Otherwise one wouldn't be stronger than another. So, logically, the best of them all still blunders. Does that make it NOT art?

Avatar of Optimissed
DavidWills99 wrote:

It is both. You can't have one without the other. Look up Mandelbrot fractals. And that is why a sunset or a woman's face ... it all is beautiful, as is all Pattern Groups in chess (my opinion only). Mandelbrot Set is used for art but it simply IS mathematical.

ADDED: If you've never seen some of the incredible patterns generated by this tech, do yourself a favor and take a look. I see a lot of similarities in chessboard complexity.

I'd prefer not to have to rely on someone else's mind, thanks.

Avatar of isolani-d4

You might want to check into it. It has nothing to do with another's mind. At all. :-)

Avatar of Optimissed
DavidWills99 wrote:

You might want to check into it. It has nothing to do with another's mind. At all. :-)

I already did and I apologise. Thought it was going to be another boring bit of cleverness but it isn't. Thanks for that. Very interesting.

Avatar of Optimissed

I'm doing some amateur archaeology atm. We're lucky enough to have an unknown and fantastic site near where I live. 1800 BC and before ... endless patterns made in stones, only three feet down on top of a hill.

Avatar of isolani-d4

@Optimissed ah that would be heaven. I hope the weather holds out for you!

Avatar of Optimissed

It's become nasty and the site has been filled in for Winter. Should get going in March. There are a lot of horses and also delicate pottery items in the ground. Possible the biggest site in the North of England .... later bronze age burials built upon a probable Neolithic henge site. Earliest radio carbon dating so far 1820 BC

Avatar of Optimissed

We have a long wasy to go and haven't really got down to the neolithic but it's built onto massive trenches cut into the bedrock. Obviously Stone Age. I'll try to post a pic but having laptop trouble. Possibly Mesolithic.

Avatar of Bel3141592
Deranged wrote:

It's all precise calculations and deep thinking in order to find a rational solution.

I don't think I've ever won a game by just relying upon what my opponent may "logically" do. Intuition plays a big role as well, and quite often someone will lose because I made a move that, on the surface at least, they took to be a mistake on my part (like "accidentally" losing a knight to a pawn).

"Precise calculations"? I'm hopeless at maths, so you won't find me doing that!

Avatar of Bel3141592
DavidWills99 wrote:

It is both. You can't have one without the other. Look up Mandelbrot fractals. And that is why a sunset or a woman's face ... it all is beautiful, as is all Pattern Groups in chess (my opinion only). Mandelbrot Set is used for art but it simply IS mathematical.

Chessboards aren't "fractal" though. If one zooms in, one won't find ever-deeper and smaller "layers" of complexity; they're just squares, upon which we place the pieces. They're what they appear to be to us on our scale, and nothing more.

Avatar of isolani-d4

Everything is mathematics. You self-admit you don't know maths. I do. But you're far better at chess, so there's that and I'd rather have your skill!

Avatar of Bel3141592
Sololevelingsirjohn wrote:

Video games are a art.

Creating them or playing them? Or both? Isn't it just programming? If so, then I don't think so.

Avatar of Bel3141592
DavidWills99 wrote:

Everything is mathematics. You self-admit you don't know maths. I do. But you're far better at chess, so there's that and I'd rather have your skill!

Emotions aren't maths. Aesthetic appreciation (i.e. beauty) isn't maths. Being a good person, and knowing what that even means, isn't maths. Right and wrong, good vs. evil isn't maths. I could go on. happy.png

Avatar of isolani-d4

Believe what you wish. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Avatar of Bel3141592
Optimissed wrote:

We have a long wasy to go and haven't really got down to the neolithic but it's built onto massive trenches cut into the bedrock. Obviously Stone Age. I'll try to post a pic but having laptop trouble. Possibly Mesolithic.

Is there a discussion about archaeology or palaeontology that I missed here?

Avatar of Bel3141592
DavidWills99 wrote:

Believe what you wish. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, if I'm wrong...

Show me! happy.png