Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Ummmm weird!
It's the Paranoid Kid!

You got the weird part right, sort of.

Elroch

Just to check, is there a single person (other than @Optimissed) who bizarrely thinks that the fact that general theorems about games of the class to which chess belongs applies to chess is "inductive" rather than a logical deduction?

If there is, I would politely advise them to get a better understanding of the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning. Any reputable source will do. (I assume that @Optimissed himself is too pig-headed to take that advice, so is doomed to remain wrong. I wish I could be more optimistic wink.png ).

Modus Ponens

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, <<<who bizarrely thinks that the fact that general theorems about games of the class to which chess belongs>>> shows a number of mistakes. Firstly, the insertion of "bizarrely" turns it into a leading or prejudiced question, making it clear that you don't really want to know who agrees with whom, if anyone has any formed opinions in any case.
However, we can be more destructive if we choose. Firstly, you seem to think of chess as a game of perfect information. That is obviously highly questionable but it is beside the point, since you evidently do not know what games theory is or how to apply it. If you did, you would understand that games theory cannot be applied to aid the solving of chess, since chess cannot be reduced to a model of itself.
You do seem to lack the capability to understand even the most basic and fundamental points I'm making. You don't attempt to answer them because you don't understand them. You come across to me as not all that bright and I don't care a hang of what you think of my own abilities because your historic inability to actually answer any points I make shows you for what you are. And what you are is what you have made yourself into.

Somebody messaged me out of the blue the other day and suggested to me that you and btickler are the same person. I replied that I didn't think that you are. I won't say who.

Have you ever considered that people mess with your head because you respond to "messages out of the blue" and are an easy target?

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

No, because they don't. It's still relevant though, but perhaps you can't work out why. It's partly something to do with you and Elroch being similar, in that you both will argue that black is white if it means that by doing so, you don't have to concede a point because you can evade it by sidetracking. I could see where they were coming from.

Also, the person concerned considers you both to be trolls.

Fascinating.  Have you asked them their opinion on the royal family?  Better make use of this topical resource while they are deigning to give you free information wink.png...

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Just a random person we both know. I talk to people sometimes but maybe you don't. It was out of the blue because it was ages since we talked or messaged.

The point is that both of you make the assumption that you aren't trolls.

As do you.

mpaetz

    Do I count too? Someone here has often accused me of trolling.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Just a random person we both know. I talk to people sometimes but maybe you don't. It was out of the blue because it was ages since we talked or messaged.

The point is that both of you make the assumption that you aren't trolls.

As do you.

You were upsetting people for aged before our paths crossed.

I'm just the messenger.

Anyway, this is just yet another sidetracking project basically because you aren't very good at debating and you're trying to protect your own.

As were you.  Our paths first crossed when you were beating somebody else over the head with your claimed IQ.  Not surprising, really.

You are a messenger for a kingdom of ne'er-do-wells wink.png.

Elroch

And the answer to my question is ... there is not a single person who is willing to back up @Optimissed's inexplicable claim that a model example of deductive reasoning is inductive.

I don't believe he is capable of seeing why that is.

tygxc

Back on topic.

The game-theoretic value is the outcome when all participants play optimally.

Ultra-weakly solved means that the game-theoretic value of the initial position has been determined.
There is massive evidence that the game-theoretic value of the initial position of Chess is a draw.

Weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined
to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition.

Strongly solved is being used for a game for which such a strategy has been determined
for all legal positions. For Chess this would mean a 32-men table base
and there are 10^44 legal positions, too much for present technology.

So the question is: will Chess be weakly solved?

So this means for Chess that for the initial position a strategy (i.e. one strategy, not all strategies) has been determined to achieve the draw for black against all opposition by white. i.e. white tries to win, black tries to draw, white fails, black succeeds, then Chess is weakly solved.

All participants play optimally, this means that white must oppose to the draw.
1 Nh3 opposes less than 1 Nf3. 1 a4 opposes less than 1 e4 or 1 d4.
1 c3 opposes less than 1 c4.
1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 is sure not to be optimal play.
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Ng1 does not oppose: 3...Nb8 draws by repetition.
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nd4, 3 Nxe5, 3 Ng5, 3 Nh4 are sure not to be optimal play.
Good assistants, i.e. (ICCF) (grand)masters must contribute such knowledge and more.

The use of such knowledge is beneficial and allowed in weakly solving a game.
That leaves 10^17 relevant positions.

The latest cloud engines calculate a billion positions per second.
A year contains 31557600 seconds.
Thus 3 cloud engines (or 3000 desktops) can weakly solve chess in 5 years.

That is what GM Sveshnikov prophecised:
"Give me five years, good assistants and the latest computers
- I will bring all openings to technical endgames and "close" chess."

He was right.
The obstacle is the money: 3 million $ to hire 3 (ICCF) (grand)masters full time
and rent 3 cloud engines (or 3000 dekstops) non stop 24/7 during 5 years.

DiogenesDue

One who eschews and dismisses all sources of knowledge cannot really know much.  That just follows, yes?

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You must imagine that you and Elroch are sources of knowledge!  

That does *not* follow.  Better take the whole exam over, you might not get a good score wink.png.

Mike_Kalish

I have a very fundamental question that I'm not sure has been answered:

 

Given any position in a game, does there exist, for the player about to move, an "optimal" move, such that if he makes that move, he will have a certain path to at least a draw no matter what the opponent does?

I am not convinced that such a move exists. Obviously, you can talk about percentages and data bases, but here we're looking for certainty, and I don't think we've established that it exists. 

Elroch

In "any position", there is one or more optimal moves which allows the forcing of the optimal result against any counterstrategy. In some positions this optimal result is a win; in others, a draw (and in some, a loss, which means all moves are optimal in the pure sense).

Mike_Kalish
Elroch wrote:

In "any position", there is one or more optimal moves which allows the forcing of the optimal result against any counterstrategy. In some positions this is a draw, in some positions a win (and in some a loss, which means all moves are optimal in the pure sense).

I'm not convinced. You're making an assertion that I don't agree with, but you're offering no rationale. 

Mike_Kalish

If we were talking tic tac toe or checkers, we'd all agree there is an "optimal" move that assures at least a path to a draw. How do we know if this is true in chess?

Also, I'm not sure how you can have one "or more" optimal moves. 

Elroch

Just to demonstrate that @Optimissed's projection about those who contribute to Wikipedia was not accurate:

An example peer-reviewed paper about the non-trivial ultra-weak solution of a game in the same general class as chess, checkers, go etc.

Another peer-reviewed paper listing many important games that have been weakly solved and discussing the prospects for solving others.

A milestone paper, explaining how checkers had finally been weakly solved.

 

 

Elroch
mikekalish wrote:
Elroch wrote:

In "any position", there is one or more optimal moves which allows the forcing of the optimal result against any counterstrategy. In some positions this is a draw, in some positions a win (and in some a loss, which means all moves are optimal in the pure sense).

I'm not convinced. You're making an assertion that I don't agree with, but you're offering no rationale. 

I didn't, but this is a theorem from the theory of finite games, so you can be absolutely sure it is true.

The proof is not trivial but is quite easy.

Mike_Kalish
Elroch wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
Elroch wrote:

In "any position", there is one or more optimal moves which allows the forcing of the optimal result against any counterstrategy. In some positions this is a draw, in some positions a win (and in some a loss, which means all moves are optimal in the pure sense).

I'm not convinced. You're making an assertion that I don't agree with, but you're offering no rationale. 

I didn't, but this is a theorem from the theory of finite games, so you can be absolutely sure it is true.

The proof is not trivial but is quite easy.

OK, I'm a bit out "over my skis" here, but what is the definition of a "finite game"?

Elroch
mikekalish wrote:
Elroch wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
Elroch wrote:

In "any position", there is one or more optimal moves which allows the forcing of the optimal result against any counterstrategy. In some positions this is a draw, in some positions a win (and in some a loss, which means all moves are optimal in the pure sense).

I'm not convinced. You're making an assertion that I don't agree with, but you're offering no rationale. 

I didn't, but this is a theorem from the theory of finite games, so you can be absolutely sure it is true.

The proof is not trivial but is quite easy.

OK, I'm a bit out "over my skis" here, but what is the definition of a "finite game"?

A finite two player game is where there are two players, they move alternately, there are a finite number of alternatives at each move and every game ends in a finite number of moves.  An example of a game that fails to meet the definition would be noughts and crosses on an infinite plane. Chess only meets the definition if you assume draws are forced by the 50 move rule or a repetition, rather than needing to be claimed.

[Also, I don't think my adjective "easy" was really appropriate. Rather it is a concise proof!].

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Do you mean that you admit you're not sources of knowledge? Does that mean that you don't know enough to be able to make a judgement??

Exam?? Dementia?

Lol, when you don't like your test results you just take the test over and over until you do...I would have expected you to pick up on that.