Chess will never be solved, here's why

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MARattigan

@DesperateKingWalk re post #7644

More or less exactly what I was talking about.

Some points:

The are no good moves in a position. Only bad moves that changes the Balance of the Position. 

You also have given no definition of "good" and "bad" moves, so your statement can be understood only in an informal sense.

Here are two games from the position I posted for @Optimissed. In both cases White is Arena/Rybka 2.3.2a at 10 sec. fixed think time on my desktop.


The first game is against SF15 with the same time control. The second against the top moves on the Syzygy site, which I entered manually,

In an informal sense I would describe the moves from Syzygy as bad (compared with those by SF15, or in fact compared with those of anyone but a total beginner - I got mate in 8 when I tried it). I'd describe them as bad compared with SF15 becase Rybka comes out a half point better off against them.

I'd also describe Syzygy's moves as perfect. That's because I have a definition of "perfect" and it applies to the moves. So in the context of solving chess that is correct.

That is the problem with trying to make exact statements such as the one above with undefined and consequently ambiguous terms. The point I was trying to make to @Optimissed (obviously with zero success).

You can only make the position worst with perfect play. 

No. In fact with perfect play the best game-theoretic result is achieved. You can say that unequivocally, because we have a definition of perfect play and that's what it says. 

You could make a position worse or better in some informal senses by making a perfect move, but not by perfect play.

But with a perfect solved solution of the game of chess. This information is nice to know, and is known. 

A solution of chess does not necessarily tell you what moves are accurate, though some do.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
DesperateKingWalk wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:


The rationale is that there are two qualities of moves only .... good and bad. A good move doesn't alter the game state and a bad move is one that does. Anything else is subjective and may well reflect the tastes of the players.

 

I understand English. I also understand what is required of a definition.

You clearly don't understand English as well as you suppose, and the same goes for what is required of a definition. Definitions are always understood in context and what I am proposing is far less ambiguous, more focussed and far more efficient. All you're advocating is the status quo. That's fine. It's your prerogative but I'm showing anybody who is interested that your status quo is unfocussed, confusing and inadequate.

English has ambiguities. The term "good move" is ambiguous, so does not mean the same as "perfect move" with the usual definition of the latter. The phrase "good move" does not define it correctly.

So is "perfect move", but you accept that as a jargon or a specialised phrase. Your observation is subjective and one-eyed.

You're the most pretentious poster on the thread, Why are you objecting on those grounds?

And I would say that I'm the least pretentious, certainly compared with some I could name.

The use of exact definitions and specialised nomenclature excludes only those like yourself who are either incapable of understanding them or can't be bothered Those people are not going to make any useful contribution to the discussion anyway.

Come on. I may be cleverer than you but you've had a career in computing. You wish to use any tactics to discredit others. I know what I'm saying is right and you discredit yourself completely by making all these fuzzy, subjective and personally motivated objections, instead of arguing, or trying to, in a straightforward manner. I don't think you're able to discuss anything for very long without being personal and wanting to defend your territory.

For the rest of us they're useful, indispensible even if the subject is to be discussed seriously.

Maybe they are if you don't have any real ability to rethink. But you're hardly capable of discussing anything seriously. I've never seen anyone who habitually brings in so many irrelevances. My talking about my mother-in-law for five hours pales in comparison with the crap you talk. No difference at all in kind between you and tygxc talking about Mr S's project all the time.


<<<The existing definitions are second rate jargon and are the reason for a general difficulty many have in understanding this subject.>>>

There you seem to disagree with the academics who have spent years studying game theory. For my part, I prefer the second rate jargon to anything you have proposed to replace it. Mainly because it's workable and your suggestion of replacing it with ambiguities is not. 


Yes I do, don't I. I can still think but perhaps you can't? Of course, I can have no idea as to what your starting level was like.

 

 

The are no good moves in a position. Only bad moves that changes the Balance of the Position. 

No move can improve the position with perfect play. You can only make the position worst against perfect play. 

And remember a move that wins slower, or loses faster in not a imperfect move. As it does not change the balance of the position. 

Chess does not give extra credit for finding these types of moves. 

But with a perfect solved solution of the game of chess. This information is nice to know, and is known. 


In the context of solving chess, a good move is any move that doesn't alter the game state. It has nothing to do with anything else and MAR is incapable of thinking clearly and logically.

A good move is not defined in the context of solving chess, it's normally used in comments on practical play.

There are only good moves and bad moves. If a move doesn't alter the game state, then it cannot be a losing move. If it complicates the game, it may be to the taste of someone who doesn't want to give an opponent an easy game. So no subjective evaluations are relevant, which is why MAR is wrong, as well as being a troll.

Subjective evaluations are not relevant to solving chess. That's why your proposal to replace all the definitions (second rate jargon as you describe them) by subjective terms is moronic.

When you say I'm wrong about the distinction between solving and playing chess you're just highlighting your own inability to read and comprehend.

 

 

Nikaru_hakamura_the_real

Nice

MARattigan

So how come I've spent so much time fruitlessly trying to convince you that in terms of solving chess you don't start off with a slight advantage that gradually evaporates. You kept posting that you'd proved chess was a draw by that argument on ponz's thread. (Without any supercomputers or maids with mops.)

MARattigan
DesperateKingWalk wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

@DesperateKingWalk re post #7644

More or less exactly what I was talking about.

Some points:

The are no good moves in a position. Only bad moves that changes the Balance of the Position. 

...

What is your point other then the position is a forced win for white in the games you posted. 

And chess engines can play imperfectly.

My point is that if you have been provided with second rate jargon it's a good idea to use it,

The are no good moves in a position.

doesn't mean anything definite without a definition of "good".

People would not normally call Syzygy's moves in my example "good". I wouldn't. But I would call them "perfect" because I like to use second rate jargon which all relevant people discussing solving chess will understand.

 

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

So how come I've spent so much time fruitlessly trying to convince you that in terms of solving chess you don't start off with a slight advantage that gradually evaporates. You kept posting that you'd proved chess was a draw by that argument on ponz's thread. (Without any supercomputers or maids with mops.)


We're talking about solving chess here. Not about whether we know it's a draw by best play. Obviously chess can't be proven to be a draw by that method. Are you stupid too?

Scewz me! It wasn't me that claimed to have proved chess was a draw by that method, it was an id "Optimissed" (any relation by chance?).

Any proof that chess is a draw is impossible. However, I believe we can be sure that it's a draw.

No. You can be sure it's a draw if you want.

 

MARattigan

@DesperateKingsWalk

Yes, apologies. I played SF and Rybka wrong way round in Arena at first and it was quicker to do Rybka/Syzygy than redo it right way round.

I think it's Ok now.

Oh, I see what you mean. When it says martin that's actually me transferring the moves from the Syzygy site. I'll edit it again. 

MARattigan

Sad man.

mpaetz

     Have you guys ever considered just making a video of yourself sticking out your tongue or mooning the other poster? You could just post that every time your nemesis makes a comment, saving everyone a bit of time.

     I guess that might detract from the entertainment I imagine some others derive from these arguments.

MARattigan

Dunno. Sounds like a good idea.

mpaetz
shangtsung111 wrote:

  I think the reason why this argument never ends is ,not only us being too far from the solution but also everybody having different idea and assumption about "what  solution should mean"

     That has been discussed at length a few times over the length of this thread. No need to go back and read through the arguments as most are repeated in part regularly.

     My opinion: solving chess means determining whether or not there is any line of play for either side that will inevitably lead to checkmate in all variations. If not, the game is inherently a draw. (I believe this to be the case, but don't think we can regarded it as proven.)

     The enormity of the task of investigating every possibility is acknowledged by everyone. Some say we need to simplify the task by taking some opinions of most openings as fact to simplify the process. Some say the proof can never be achieved. My opinion: not likely in our lifetime, but it is foolish to deny the possibility that some future development in information processing or computer hardware could make it feasible. 

MARattigan
mpaetz wrote:
shangtsung111 wrote:

  I think the reason why this argument never ends is ,not only us being too far from the solution but also everybody having different idea and assumption about "what  solution should mean"

     That has been discussed at length a few times over the length of this thread. No need to go back and read through the arguments as most are repeated in part regularly.

Discussed but not resolved.

     My opinion: solving chess means determining whether or not there is any line of play for either side that will inevitably lead to checkmate in all variations. If not, the game is inherently a draw. (I believe this to be the case, but don't think we can regarded it as proven.)

The flaw is you only describe an ultra weak solution. I think the debate is about at least a weak solution (though OP doesn't specify).

     The enormity of the task of investigating every possibility is acknowledged by everyone. Some say we need to simplify the task by taking some opinions of most openings as fact to simplify the process. Some say the proof can never be achieved. My opinion: not likely in our lifetime, but it is foolish to deny the possibility that some future development in information processing or computer hardware could make it feasible. 

MARattigan

Indeed.

There are several reasonable and distinct definitions of what it could mean, of which that just given by @mpaetz is one.

I was just pointing out it's not the one that's generally been discussed in the thread so far (but no reason why it shouldn't be discussed).

There have also been unreasonable definitions proposed (mainly by @tygxc and @Optimissed).

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
...

It was the other way round. You seemed to misunderstand what Mr Rattigan means by perfect play. To him, any move that doesn't alter the game from draw to loss or win to draw is perfect.

...

If you're going to tell people what I mean, try and get it right.

I do not regard moves that alter the game from win to loss as perfect.

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
...

You see, senile people like you sometimes imagine that only what they think is true and the thoughts of others are all fantasies.
...

Some others, @Optimissed. Only some.

MARattigan

I thought you were going to bed. Didn't mean to keep you up.

If you're rambling incoherently sleep is always a good idea. You might be able to see things clearer in the morning.

tygxc

Some more trolling going on here, trolls accusing each other of trolling and trolls putting their own personal definitions above the established definitions.

Prof. van den Herik was a professional game theorist and he defined:

Ultra-weakly solved means that the game-theoretic value of the initial position has been
determined,
weakly solved means that for the initial position a strategy has been determined to achieve the game-theoretic value against any opposition, and
strongly solved is being used for a game for which such a strategy has been determined for all legal positions.
The game-theoretic value of a game is the outcome when all participants play optimally.

According to the trolls he was wrong.

GM Sveshnikov was a professional chess analyst, who taught upcoming masters how to analyse chess with computers. He said:

'Give me five years, good assistants and the latest computers
- I will bring all openings to technical endgames'

According to the trolls he was wrong despite facts and figures confirming he was right.

yuann
tygxc wrote:

Has chess been solved? No
Can chess be solved? Yes, it takes 5 years on cloud engines.
Will chess be solved? Maybe, it depends on somebody paying 5 million $ for the cloud engines and the human assistants during 5 years.

Have humans walked on Mars? No
Can humans walk on Mars? Yes
Will humans walk on Mars? Maybe, it depends on somebody paying billions of $ to build and launch a spacecraft.

pretty pog answer

haiaku

Careful. According to Allis', van den Herik's and other definitions, a weak solution provides the game-theoretic value of the initial position and a strategy to achieve at least that value. This is why, and not only in this field, the adjective "optimal" is usually preferred to "perfect" or "best". Let's say that eventually a computer assisted proof will show that the value of the initial position is a draw; any move that can force the draw will be optimal, then, according to the definition of weak solution. That is, if the game-theoretic value of the initial position is a draw and I use the proof tree of the weak solution to force only the draw against any opponent, I play optimally, for the weak solution, even if my opponent blunders into a loss.

tygxc

@7691

Yes, the definitions are carefully worded.