Chess will never be solved, here's why

Sort:
Elroch

A chess strategy is a decision process that suffices for all positions that can arise against any opposing play. i.e. it picks a move in every position that can arise when applying it.

I hope seeing the definition helps you.

 

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

It is false that there is a strategy-stealing strategy for white. It would need to cover EVERY black response.

No it would only need to occur at any one point in the game.

Strategy-stealing is a way to construct an ENTIRE STRATEGY for one player from a strategy for the other player. This means a decision process for every position that can arise when executing the "stolen strategy".


I don't call it strategy-stealing.

Your post discussed what had previously been referred to as strategy-stealing using the pronoun "it". Do you not understand how communicating in a language works?

 

tygxc

@8072

"a strategy-stealing strategy for white. It would need to cover EVERY black response."
++ It is up to those that put forward chess being a black win as a plausible hypothesis to come up with evidence supporting that claim. For example 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 being a black win. Then 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 d3 Nc6 4 d4 is a white win.
Whatever possible black wins the proponents of the black wins hypothesis come up with,
there is a corresponding strategy stealing by white that disproves it.
It is up to the proponents of black wins to come up with plausible black strategies.
Then the strategy stealing reduces those hypotheses ad absurdum.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

A chess strategy is a decision process that suffices for all positions that can arise against any opposing play. i.e. it picks a move in every position that can arise when applying it.

I hope seeing the definition helps you.

 

It helps me as much as any other drivel.
Who is the fool who invented that?
It simply describes "a good move".

So you think a winning strategy for checkers is "a good move". It is a shame you did not publish this before several years of computation was done.

Elroch
tygxc wrote:

@8072

"a strategy-stealing strategy for white. It would need to cover EVERY black response."
++ It is up to those that put forward chess being a black win as a plausible hypothesis to come up with evidence supporting that claim. For example 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 being a black win. Then 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 d3 Nc6 4 d4 is a white win.
Whatever possible black wins the proponents of the black wins hypothesis come up with,
there is a corresponding strategy stealing by white that disproves it.
It is up to the proponents of black wins to come up with plausible black strategies.
Then the strategy stealing reduces those hypotheses ad absurdum.

There is no strategy stealing argument for chess, as authoritative works explain. 

tygxc

@8049

"that doesnt work" ++ It does work.

"you prove absolutely nothing"
++ I outline how it can be done. I earlier proved only 10^17 positions are relevant to weakly solving chess and that present computers can exhaust these in 5 years.
Many here still fail to understand that.

@8053

"you also still assume that black is playing to draw and not win"
++ This is totally besides the question.

"literally by the second move you have a  false assumption" ++ There is no false assumption.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:

It is false that there is a strategy-stealing strategy for white. It would need to cover EVERY black response.

No it would only need to occur at any one point in the game.

Strategy-stealing is a way to construct an ENTIRE STRATEGY for one player from a strategy for the other player. This means a decision process for every position that can arise when executing the "stolen strategy".


I don't call it strategy-stealing.

Your post discussed what had previously been referred to as strategy-stealing using the pronoun "it". Do you not understand how communicating in a language works?

 


Do you really want me to refer to it as "that process, which had previously been referred to as strategy stealing"? I think one of us doesn't understand communication, that's for sure.

No, that meant that you had been discussing strategy stealing.

On reflection, this is an example of a mode of faulty thinking that is way too common. You said (exact words) "I don't even call it strategy stealing.". The only significance of what you call it is that it might stop people understanding it if you eccentrically choose not to use the standard term, as you indicate.

What matters are CONCEPTS. Words and phrases are just convenient ways to refer to concepts.

Here the concept is (what is known in established terminology as) strategy stealing, a clearly defined concept relating to a class of games where it can be proven the second player cannot have a winning strategy because (fundamentally) there is no zugzwang - any position plus an extra move has value (for the player who moves) at least as high as the same position without the extra move. This property means that if for every strategy for the second player, there is at least one strategy for the first player that achieves as good a result for the first player as the strategy for the second player does for him/her.  This implies the second player cannot have a winning strategy.

For there to be a strategy-stealing result for chess, it would be necessary to dodge all zugzwang positions. Most insightful people will see that it is a safe bet that this scuppers the possibility. Attempting to construct one helps to make this clear.

Examples of where this is easily seen to be so are tictactoe and connect4.

 

Intellectual_26

Once Again, I hit a Hundredth.

🎉

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

You just talk rubbish regarding expression in the English language. I can't be bothered to argue it out with you and I think your reaction is highly eccentric to say the least. Considering who there is agreeing with you, I'm afraid that counts as a negative and not a positive. You really ought to get him not to give your posts the thumbs up. Looks bad. I've been discussing the tactic itself and not its name or anything else you think applies to that name or should apply to it. You're the one with the comprehension problems, Elroch. This isn't a PhD thesis.

However, I intend to read what you wrote very carefully, regarding strategy stealing, in the hope of learning something, because it isn't too late for some of us to learn. (tygxc is the one who gave that particular tactic that name.)

It got a thumbs up because it explains your misunderstandings and lack of ability to express yourself on many topics, and encapsulates your logical shortcomings quite succinctly.

mpaetz
tygxc wrote:

++ It has been established by now that Chess is a draw.
White has an advantage of 1 tempo called the initiative, but not enough to draw.
Black is at a disadvantage, but not enough to lose.

    This encapsulates the problem with Sveshnikov's plan: the conclusion has been reached before the investigation begins. Eliminating the great majority of possibilities in order to focus on what the "experts" believe will lead to the conclusion they have predetermined cannot produce a credible result.

mpaetz
tygxc wrote:

Chess is most complex at 26 men. Computers get swamped from 32 to 26 men. So it makes sense that grandmasters with data bases handle 32 to 26 men and only then launch the engine.

     This admits that it is impossible for your method to solve the game from the opening position, so we will arbitrarily start from a few selected positions with 20% of the pieces eliminated.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@8052

...
Chess is most complex at 26 men. ...

Very unlikely, Chess is most likely most complex at 32 men.

You've obviously read somewhere that the number of basic rules legal positions reaches a maximum at 26 men but overlooked the fact that you can have a limited number of distributions of material with 26 men in any one game. The number of basic rules positions with 32 men would be of the order of 10^8 or 10'9 times the number that can occur in any of those distributions.

MARattigan
Elroch wrote:

A chess strategy is a decision process that suffices for all positions that can arise against any opposing play. i.e. it picks a move in every position that can arise when applying it.

I hope seeing the definition helps you.

 

To nit pick it needn't necessarily pick a move. It could pick a draw claim under the 50 move or triple repetition rules or the offer or acceptance of a draw or nothing at all if it's not your move.

It could also leave you free to pick from a selection of moves (as in a strategy that takes one of the best moves from Syzygy when available),

I would prefer: 

A game strategy for a player is a function from the set of game positions with values that are (possibly empty) sets of actions for that player that are legal under the rules.

Where a game position means simply a situation arising in a game.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I might wonder how come you know the word "succinctly".
Then I remember that form doesn't = content. You're a fool.

Ahh, you've driven yourself back to the personal insults stage...the self-imposed break is usually not far behind...

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:

A chess strategy is a decision process that suffices for all positions that can arise against any opposing play. i.e. it picks a move in every position that can arise when applying it.

I hope seeing the definition helps you.

 

To nit pick it needn't necessarily pick a move. It could pick a draw claim under the 50 move or triple repetition rules or the offer or acceptance of a draw or nothing at all if it's not your move.

These are moves in the general sense - choice of action when it is your turn,

It could also leave you free to pick from a selection of moves (as in a strategy that takes one of the best moves from Syzygy when available),

I said it picked a move. I didn't actually say it always picked the same move in a given position. happy.png

I would prefer: 

A game strategy for a player is a function from the set of game positions with values that are (possibly empty) sets of actions for that player that are legal under the rules.

I am not sure why you want to permit an empty set. If it is your turn you need to do something!

Where a game position means simply a situation arising in a game.

As you are aware, it only needs to be the positions that can arise when the strategy is being used. Quite an important point, including practically - as eg 10^14 versus 10^20 positions for checkers (if I recall).

 

Elroch
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

You just talk rubbish regarding expression in the English language. I can't be bothered to argue it out with you and I think your reaction is highly eccentric to say the least. Considering who there is agreeing with you, I'm afraid that counts as a negative and not a positive. You really ought to get him not to give your posts the thumbs up. Looks bad. I've been discussing the tactic itself and not its name or anything else you think applies to that name or should apply to it. You're the one with the comprehension problems, Elroch. This isn't a PhD thesis.

However, I intend to read what you wrote very carefully, regarding strategy stealing, in the hope of learning something, because it isn't too late for some of us to learn. (tygxc is the one who gave that particular tactic that name.)

It got a thumbs up because it explains your misunderstandings and lack of ability to express yourself on many topics, and encapsulates your logical shortcomings quite succinctly.

@Optimissed, I appreciate the thumbs up from @btickler, a level-headed and detached analyst.

Please also note that while @tygxc may have introduced you to the term "strategy stealing", those of us who are more familiar with peer-reviewed and/or textbook work on solving games were already familiar with it. The normal reaction to learning of some terminology is to improve your technical vocabulary, not to either guess wrongly where it arose or to say you are going to obfuscate by refusing to use it. Note also that searching for information will usually help. Do it many times a day and many errors will be avoided.

MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@8067


"I know that better than any here."

wdym u literally said several false things about it.

im literally going into it as a profession, while you still make basic errors on your 'proofs' for stuff like strategy stealing.

"mathematicians were willing to believe rumors of counter examples" ++ Bad mathematicians...

++Actually no, it included the guy who ended up proving fermats theorem was among the people who believed it.  

imagine saying "bad mathematicians", lol. 

"contrary to zero evidence/logic" ++ I presented the evidence and the logic.
If you do not understand it, then that is your problem.

i understand that it is explicitly wrong and doesnt constitute evidence nor logic. 

"you need to address the fault in your strategy stealing claim" ++ There is no fault.
If 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 wins for black, then 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 d3 Nc6 4 d4 wins for white.

++ black doesnt have to play d5, you have a logical error.  we will just say that 1.  NF3 d6 could be a win for black.  

"Come up with any black win and there is a corresponding white win by strategy stealing.
Whatever black tries, white always has a way to lose a tempo. That is reductio ad absurdum."

++no that isnt. you SAY that there is a way to lose tempo, you have to prove it.

 

MEGACHE3SE

Optimissed I would recommend u look into the proof for the game of "chomp"  

MEGACHE3SE
tygxc wrote:

@8072

"a strategy-stealing strategy for white. It would need to cover EVERY black response."
++ It is up to those that put forward chess being a black win as a plausible hypothesis to come up with evidence supporting that claim. For example 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 being a black win. Then 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 d3 Nc6 4 d4 is a white win.
Whatever possible black wins the proponents of the black wins hypothesis come up with,
there is a corresponding strategy stealing by white that disproves it.
It is up to the proponents of black wins to come up with plausible black strategies.
Then the strategy stealing reduces those hypotheses ad absurdum.

that actually hurts to read as a math student.  a statement is to be regarded as a possibility until it is explicitly proven to not be possible.  end of story.  I have NO burden of proof here.

MEGACHE3SE

txgyc 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy-stealing_argument#Chess