Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

again...just jealous. hism blism lol !

You would be the expert on that.

MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

@13480

"They'll generally fail a randomly chosen White win in KNNvKP for example."

...

3. It shows human superiority: Troitsky (1866 - 1942) solved it when computers did not yet exist.

Troitzky gave a very comprehensive, but still incomplete, solution of the White wins under basic rules only. He didn't solve the Black wins. He would have almost certainly failed the White win in 108 against Syzygy from the position I posted here under competition rules.

Tablebases completely solve both White and Black wins under both basic and competition rules (though weakly and from only nodes with no repeated 9.2.2 positions in the latter case).

DiogenesDue
tygxc wrote:

@13502

"so this position wins for black"
'It loses by force' - Fischer
'I could not find a way for white to equalise' - Kramnik
See also Figure 4d

See also TCEC.
There is good reason why it is no longer played in top competition, except for an occasional surprise.

Thanks for paper showing that Alpha Zero considers there to be a bare minimum of 4.5 candidates per move in classical chess (figure 11, page 23). Handy for refuting you.

MEGACHE3SE
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

its just that he challenges ur common sense as u secretly push ur own away. thats a u problem not a Ty problem. yet ppl attack Ty. only cuz theyre frustrated-angry w/ themself for abandoning their own common sense.

Again, I am genuinely curious how someone who literally rejects mathematical logic is challenging anything. give specific examples.

MEGACHE3SE
DiogenesDue wrote:
tygxc wrote:

@13502

"so this position wins for black"
'It loses by force' - Fischer
'I could not find a way for white to equalise' - Kramnik
See also Figure 4d

See also TCEC.
There is good reason why it is no longer played in top competition, except for an occasional surprise.

Thanks for paper showing that Alpha Zero considers there to be a bare minimum of 4.5 candidates per move in classical chess (figure 11, page 23). Handy for refuting you.

i would be genuinely surprised to find that tygxc cited a single source that did not directly contradict at least one of his claims.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

if theres a finite # of moves ?...itll get solved one day. not counting 3-folds. and possibly including 1000+ move games (so long as one sides improving...). its not like SHA-256 where theres a infinite # of permutes [then one day the 10^77 (decimal) permutes gets maxed (and assuming no collisions along the way)].

BaphometsChess
Maybe one day
playerafar
BaphometsChess wrote:
Maybe one day

Or night.
The main factor to 'solving chess' isn't the algorithms or software - nor is it the available money - nor even the amount of man hours put in - nor even the number of years of computer time!
Its the processing speed of the computers.
The Speed.
The speed of the Hardware.
Determines both if and when chess could theoretically be solved.
If its going to take trillions of years - the sun would have engulfed the earth long before then or various other cosmological events would have 'put the kibosh' on the project. Or both.
Or even just extra-major nuclear war on earth.
No more project.

MARattigan

Someone who can't tell the difference between finite and infinite is probably not the sharpest tool in the box.

MARattigan

As I said.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

Someone who can't tell the difference between finite and infinite is probably not the sharpest tool in the box.

Correct. For instance, Elroch believes that the infinite can be counted even though "infinite" literally means "cannot be counted", since finite means countable.

I know that you haven't been sharpened for about 30 years so I know you won't understand what I'm talking about either. I think you've found your level quite nicely.

Narcissism is a problem for you in situations like this because, unlike balanced people, you are unable to comprehend that the knowledge and understanding of the entire mathematical world for a century or so is enormously superior to your own.

If you did want to start to catch up (and had the capability to do so - this seems unlikely, since you are having problems even with the simple distinction between finite and infinite cardinality) any authoritative source would be able to help.

Cardinal numbers (Wikipedia)

Cardinal numbers (Wolfram Mathworld)

Cardinal numbers (The Encyclopedia of Mathematics)

Kyobir

how do we know that the best move isn't sticking a fork into a toaster?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

The speed of the Hardware.

I remember s/t. .i just turned 12 (ill be 49 on halloween). my friends father JD hadda computer. he was sooo taken that it hadda 10 megabyte hard drive. oohh-aahh. lol now right ? see where weve come in 35 yrs ?...know where were going in 35 more ? trust me. were gonna oohh & aahh & laff ourselfs to sleep then !

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

how do we know that the best move isn't sticking a fork into a toaster?

guess its just as good as pop tarts, flowers on the wall, & blueberry pancakes right ?

SoupSailor
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

for example, where's the mathematically rigorous proof that Ba6 loses?

wait a sec...why stop there ?? lets getta proof for this...lol !!

 
 

Indeed. Prove it!

MARattigan
Optimissed wrote:

He thinks that some infinities may be larger than other infinities. To determine that, an infinite would need to be counted or otherwise have its magnitude assessed.

A rare glimmer of sense. If you consult @Elroch's links you'll find out how to do that. (At least they'll tell you how to do that.)

It comes down to lack of cutting edge (reliable) reasoning ability.

We agree on the sentiment, but, I suspect, not on how it applies in this case.

...

MARattigan
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

or this grand prix:

with black to move (having the tempo)...re: black hazza humongous lead...5 points to 2 points.

thats why piece eval will be critical 

Why stop at a rook?

 
Black to play
 

Or you could do an Ottó Bláthy.

 
White to play
 

Oh, of course, I forgot. A pawn advantage is enough to win only in 32 man positions (now that one is hard).

tygxc

@13491

"a bare minimum of 4.5 candidates per move in classical chess"
++ That gets smaller if transpositions are taken into account.

tygxc

@13494

"1000+ move games"
++ The 112 ICCF WC finals draws, >99.992% certain to be perfect games with optimal play from both sides end in certain draws in average 39 moves.

tygxc

@13478

"the same narrow pool of engines" ++ Some may use Stockfish, some LC0, some Komodo...
There is also a difference in hardware, e.g. the Russians have worse hardware because of sanctions. Nevertheless 4 of the 17 finalists are Russians.
It is also possible to tune the engine, e.g. change the parameter 'contempt'.
The time control is 50 days / 10 moves, but one player may spend 2 days on a move and the other 10.

"Nobody has an advantage in playing strength"
++ Over the board 2 of the 17 finalists are IM, 1 is FM, and others untitled.