Chess will never be solved, here's why

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playerafar
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
playerafar wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

It is absolutely true.

"Mathematical rules can be abstracted from chess positions."

Yes, that is how chess engines have always worked. And work today.

That does not solve chess.

Oh yes if its done it does solve chess. If a single position (like fortress or zugzwang) can be solved without brute force search then its entirely possible any position can. We dont know whats doable.

And by the way engines have been horrible at detecting fortresses in the past, dont know how much better they are now.

Another good post by Octo.
'does solve chess'
That could mean 'all of chess' or simplified chess positions with less than half of the 32 pieces on board.
Are they exclusive of each other?
No. 
------------
The role of AI in the tablebase projects - stockfish is relevant? A lot?
Point: using AI (not stockfish) to write the code for the tablebase projects.
'neural net' software? relevance.
Can any gigantic improvements in software make a dent in that gigantic number of 5 x 10^44 possible chess positions formulated by John Tromp?
There's still the hardware problems too. Number of ops per second.
To really make a dent anytime 'soon' ...
the project will need a good way of 'skipping' ...
a valid way.
(Not the silly ways pushed by a particular person for the first two years of this forum. ('taking the square root' - 'nodes per second' and so on. ) He's gone now though.)
--------------------------
In theory - chess might be solved well before the year 2100 like this?
if 'solved' could mean skipping the further processing of positions that already allow a forced win or draw to the side to move - or that move has already been made?
That's not quite worded well enough?
There's a particular detail not addressed.
If a forced draw move is available - what about if the player who has that option and is on move decides he/she would rather play for the win instead?
Or vice versa - chooses to take the draw instead of playing for the win?
Then such positions and their descendants don't look 'solved'. 
--------------------------
Resolution: Such forced win or forced draw move has already been played.
I'm going to avoid the jargon term 'weakly solved'.
When the position has reached that point there's still a certain terminology though that I think is more worthwhile.
'there's still play in the position'.
In other words whoever might botch the forced win or forced draw.
Even having made the first move to 'force' it.
Happens constantly worldwide.

You guys no nothing about computer chess.

This is another bad post by both of you.

"Oh yes if its done it does solve chess. If a single position (like fortress or zugzwang)"

Zugzwang was a problem because chess computers moved away from a full width search, a type 1 search.. And would prune out the relevant lines. So the type 2 chess engine would not detect the Zugzwang. That did not solve chess. It helped solve some of the pruning issues with type 2 chess engines. In the SEARCH of the chess game tree.

And this was the same type of issue with fortress positions. The type 2 chess engines could search very deeply by pruning the chess game tree, but did not know what a fortress position was, and would prune out the relevant lines again in the SEARCH of the chess game tree.

This helped the type 2 chess engines like Stockfish, but did not solve the problem with the search completely. As there are many types of fortress positions. And the Neural Nets have learned to recognize some of these positions.

None of these techniques solved chess or could solve chess. Again it just helped in the search of the chess game tree. So the type 2 chess engines had a chance to spot these types of issues. And not prune them out of the search of the chess game tree.

Since chess is a 100% tactical game, the only way to solve chess. Is a full width search of the whole game tree of chess.

In that post Dubrovnik said nothing about the tablebases.
Just chess engines. Again talking about Stockfish.
He failed to address anything in our posts.
How long will it take him to grasp that the posts were about solving chess not playing chess?
Does he understand that attacking the 5 x 10^44 number has more potential than attacking the Shannon number?
One more time - computer programming to solve chess via table base - Not comparing chess engines like stockfish which also has a weak AI.
Looks like Dub isn't going to catch on.
That's okay. I've seen much worse.

playerafar
DiogenesDue wrote:
ChessAGC_YT wrote:

Stop glazing Octo. Opto is much better than that person.

You might not be the best judge of character. Optimissed just came off a 90 day mute, which you only get to by having a 30 day mute, which you only get to by having some 1 week mutes, which...well, I could go on and on. It's only a matter of time before he implodes again. His memory is not as keen as he would claim and he forgets he's on his best behavior eventually.

I'm thinking that maybe AGC said something in some forum like 'what's this forum about?' or similiar.
Kids often do ask questions like that.
If one knows in advance its a kid - then allowances can be made.
But if the question got what it deserved - then Opto would be quick to take advantage and control the kid (a power play). Whatever kid it is.
Usually pre-teen or early teens.
Which would account for what's happened.
----------------
Regarding Opto's three month mute which just ended in December - 
I'm thinking maybe it was going to be one or two months but then he would have likely sassed the moderators - so up to 3 months instead and he decided he didn't want 6 months.

OctopusOnSteroids
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
playerafar wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
playerafar wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

It is absolutely true.

"Mathematical rules can be abstracted from chess positions."

Yes, that is how chess engines have always worked. And work today.

That does not solve chess.

Oh yes if its done it does solve chess. If a single position (like fortress or zugzwang) can be solved without brute force search then its entirely possible any position can. We dont know whats doable.

And by the way engines have been horrible at detecting fortresses in the past, dont know how much better they are now.

Another good post by Octo.
'does solve chess'
That could mean 'all of chess' or simplified chess positions with less than half of the 32 pieces on board.
Are they exclusive of each other?
No. 
------------
The role of AI in the tablebase projects - stockfish is relevant? A lot?
Point: using AI (not stockfish) to write the code for the tablebase projects.
'neural net' software? relevance.
Can any gigantic improvements in software make a dent in that gigantic number of 5 x 10^44 possible chess positions formulated by John Tromp?
There's still the hardware problems too. Number of ops per second.
To really make a dent anytime 'soon' ...
the project will need a good way of 'skipping' ...
a valid way.
(Not the silly ways pushed by a particular person for the first two years of this forum. ('taking the square root' - 'nodes per second' and so on. ) He's gone now though.)
--------------------------
In theory - chess might be solved well before the year 2100 like this?
if 'solved' could mean skipping the further processing of positions that already allow a forced win or draw to the side to move - or that move has already been made?
That's not quite worded well enough?
There's a particular detail not addressed.
If a forced draw move is available - what about if the player who has that option and is on move decides he/she would rather play for the win instead?
Or vice versa - chooses to take the draw instead of playing for the win?
Then such positions and their descendants don't look 'solved'. 
--------------------------
Resolution: Such forced win or forced draw move has already been played.
I'm going to avoid the jargon term 'weakly solved'.
When the position has reached that point there's still a certain terminology though that I think is more worthwhile.
'there's still play in the position'.
In other words whoever might botch the forced win or forced draw.
Even having made the first move to 'force' it.
Happens constantly worldwide.

You guys no nothing about computer chess.

This is another bad post by both of you.

"Oh yes if its done it does solve chess. If a single position (like fortress or zugzwang)"

Zugzwang was a problem because chess computers moved away from a full width search, a type 1 search.. And would prune out the relevant lines. So the type 2 chess engine would not detect the Zugzwang. That did not solve chess. It helped solve some of the pruning issues with type 2 chess engines. In the SEARCH of the chess game tree.

And this was the same type of issue with fortress positions. The type 2 chess engines could search very deeply by pruning the chess game tree, but did not know what a fortress position was, and would prune out the relevant lines again in the SEARCH of the chess game tree.

This helped the type 2 chess engines like Stockfish, but did not solve the problem with the search completely. As there are many types of fortress positions. And the Neural Nets have learned to recognize some of these positions.

None of these techniques solved chess or could solve chess. Again it just helped in the search of the chess game tree. So the type 2 chess engines had a chance to spot these types of issues. And not prune them out of the search of the chess game tree.

Since chess is a 100% tactical game, the only way to solve chess. Is a full width search of the whole game tree of chess.

In that post Dubrovnik said nothing about the tablebases.
Just chess engines. Again talking about Stockfish.
He failed to address anything in our posts.
How long will it take him to grasp that the posts were about solving chess not playing chess?
Does he understand that attacking the 5 x 10^44 number has more potential than attacking the Shannon number?
One more time - computer programming to solve chess via table base - Not comparing chess engines like stockfish which also has a weak AI.
Looks like Dub isn't going to catch on.
That's okay. I've seen much worse.

I addressed this ignorant and foolish claim.

"Oh yes if its done it does solve chess."

Again you guys no nothing about computer chess. And the evidence is clear. You fools are now on post 18,072. And still making up BS claims about how chess can be solved.

Absolutely love this guys bitter way of calling anything he doesn't understand "BS". I almost just want to leave you with your misconception. What youre saying about current chess engines and their development is probably true, I'm not going to check, because in no way does it address what was said.

The engines today use algorithms and neural networks for probabilistic approximation not to derive a formal proof... Because thats not realistic or necessary for their purpose. Obviously when solving chess the approach would be different as we want mathematical theorems that prove how to achieve the theoretical result in a given position with abstract rules. Thats more complex and the feasibility is going to vary from one position to another... But all positions are finite in complexity and in theory it can be done. Again, need proper tools to find out.

Sure, even if the probabilistic approach just gets more accurate instead of perfection thats useful as well...

playerafar

Octo it looks like we agree about 'Dub'.
He's very Dubious in his way of going about things.
(little doubt that Opto will now try to 'play' Dub - just noting)
--------------------
The tablebase projects are probably using absolutely every resource in their budget.
And I'm thinking a solution of chess with descendants of forced win positions not being bothered to be analyzed further - is beginning to look possible before the year 2100.
I say - look possible. Not look probable.
As for 'forced draw positions' that's more problematical because a player might prefer to play for the win.
But maybe those can also be pruned by getting rid of those where if the player chooses to not take the forced draw line then he's obviously lost.
Again that serves a possibility but not probability that chess might be solved in that way before the year 2100.

playerafar

Again 'Dub' made no mention of the tablebase projects.
Looks even more like he's not going to catch on.
Up to 85-15 from 70-30.
But that's OK. No big deal.
When playing poker and somebody argues with the dealer ...
that pun usually works.

OctopusOnSteroids

Dubrovnik says: "Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

So youre saying that the solution for any position cannot be proven without searching through every single legal move... For example a position that is fully locked with pawns, you must exhaust every single king move before you can prove its a draw.. The proof cannot be represented in a simpler rule set in your opinion. Okay then, I think this conversation is over.

timurkhairullin15

happy

playerafar
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
playerafar wrote:

Again 'Dub' made no mention of the tablebase projects.
Looks even more like he's not going to catch on.
Up to 85-15 from 70-30.
But that's OK. No big deal.
When playing poker and somebody argues with the dealer ...
that pun usually works.

You are completely dense. And no nothing about computer chess. And have no understanding of the these issues. And you are completely incapable of thinking critical about a project you googled on the internet.

Everything I have written here is addressing that project. And why it will fail.

"Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree."

"As chess can not be 100% correctly evaluated statically by any type of rules, or AI."

Again no mention of the tablebases.
Only a personalization. Its not about me.
And then we got 'game tree search' again.
Perhaps Dub is not aware of the John Tromp number nor the Shannon number either.
Nor that the issue of searching from the front versus solving from the end of the game 'retrograde analysis' has been discussed here for years.
-------------------------
Lookahead by computers from the opening of the game has probably been going on ever since Botvinnik and others pioneered computer chess.
But that's about playing chess not solving it.
Depending on how one chooses to define solving.

playerafar
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Dubrovnik says: "Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

So youre saying that the solution for any position cannot be proven without searching through every single legal move... For example a position that is fully locked with pawns, you must exhaust every single king move before you can prove its a draw.. The proof cannot be represented in a simpler rule set in your opinion. Okay then, I think this conversation is over.

That particular conversation with Dub is over yes.
As he's stuck in a loop of his own making.
And Opto didn't bother to read back or maybe read much at all to see I quoted two different posts of Octo's.
So Opto is already wrong again as usual. Invalid premise again.
--------------
So its not hard to predict the behaviour of Opto and Dub now.
But there's other people in the forum.
@ Octopus I quoted two different posts by you. Its obvious.
As you probably realized.
AI could have a big impact on the tablebase projects.
AI in its new form which is only about 7 years old now.
Apparently it was started by Musk and Altman (young) and others.
Those two don't like each other. Is there a lawsuit too?
Merger stuff? That qualifies under business and science rather than politics.
Is relevant to the forum subject.

playerafar

Opto behaving as predicted.
And Dub too - trying to decide for everyone what matters or not.
------------------
Found this just now - made some modifications:
'Endgame tablebases have also had a significant impact on the composition of endgame studies. Many studies that were previously thought to be sound have been proven unsound by tablebase analysis. For example, Marc Bourzutschky's work has shown that some eight-piece endgame studies are unsound, and he has discovered new positions that are human-comprehensible and interesting.
Conclusion:
While solving chess completely remains a distant goal, weak solutions and side projects continue to push the boundaries of our understanding of the game.
These efforts not only advance the field of chess but also contribute to the broader areas of computer science and mathematics.'
---------------------
Chess-solving projects could be seen as analagous to an aspect of the space program.
New cutting edge technology is generated for space launches of various kinds.
Then variants of that technology are marketed later.
Why not the same with chess projects?
Its even more of a stretch but its not hard to see the connection.
Solving chess is a daunting project - but software developed for that might easily crush lesser projects.
The budget for the solving projects is coming from somebody somewhere.
Eccentric billionaire? Maybe.

OctopusOnSteroids
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Dubrovnik says: "Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

So youre saying that the solution for any position cannot be proven without searching through every single legal move... For example a position that is fully locked with pawns, you must exhaust every single king move before you can prove its a draw.. The proof cannot be represented in a simpler rule set in your opinion. Okay then, I think this conversation is over.

Obviously there are positions which do not require searches. There's no point in insisting on pedantic rhetorical accuracy, since it should be fairly obvious that without potential king entry points or the possibility of sacrifice to gain entry, a position is drawn.

My position is much closer to Dubrovnik's and I only got irrritated because he seemed to be continually insisting on addressing player's posts, which I believe do not merit that.

I believe that a person who won't accept the possibility of luck in chess is arguing from an idealistic standpoint. For instance, maybe they don't accept that randomness exists, so no chance events exist, the outcomes of which we may or may not interpret as luck. That is an idealistic position, since it's a product only of mental interpretations which are not based on evidence.

The Platonists despised evidence and the search for it. They considered that to be the province of their equivalent of the "working classes" and certainly not the province of noble thought. It's why they were decadent and why the Romans conquered them and despised them but used them for their learning and mental abilities.

"And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

The full width search will work in EVERY chess position. I never said nothing else will work in some chess positions.

And that is obviously true.

The quote of yourself there and following statement "I never said nothing else will work in some chess positions" are in contradiction.. Understanding everything relevant thats going on in a position for the purpose of a weak solution doesnt require looking through every move, a set of simpler rules will cover for that. If you believe so too we are not in disagreement but you've misunderstood what has been talked about.

playerafar
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

Thanks for nothing Mr. Dense Google.

Looks like a good post-around.
But maybe you need a little attention too.
Reminding you you're stuck in your loop about analyzing from the front.
And you've now confirmed it by telling everyone that you think the opening position is the only one that matters.
What could motivate such a position?
Is it another one of those 'center of the universe' personalities that needs to believe that something must be true because he said so?
Looks like it. Sounds like it. Smells like it.
There's one about a duck too.
But its Opto who goes for the very most direct blatant rulebreaking and gets himself muted. He's always 'testing'.
He knows it too.
Posters other than you two will arrive and make better posts.
Okay you can both gurgle on now.

OctopusOnSteroids
Optimissed wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Dubrovnik says: "Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

So youre saying that the solution for any position cannot be proven without searching through every single legal move... For example a position that is fully locked with pawns, you must exhaust every single king move before you can prove its a draw.. The proof cannot be represented in a simpler rule set in your opinion. Okay then, I think this conversation is over.

Obviously there are positions which do not require searches. There's no point in insisting on pedantic rhetorical accuracy, since it should be fairly obvious that without potential king entry points or the possibility of sacrifice to gain entry, a position is drawn.

My position is much closer to Dubrovnik's and I only got irrritated because he seemed to be continually insisting on addressing player's posts, which I believe do not merit that.

I believe that a person who won't accept the possibility of luck in chess is arguing from an idealistic standpoint. For instance, maybe they don't accept that randomness exists, so no chance events exist, the outcomes of which we may or may not interpret as luck. That is an idealistic position, since it's a product only of mental interpretations which are not based on evidence.

The Platonists despised evidence and the search for it. They considered that to be the province of their equivalent of the "working classes" and certainly not the province of noble thought. It's why they were decadent and why the Romans conquered them and despised them but used them for their learning and mental abilities. Then Rome conquered Britain. They conquered two greatest civilisations of the Western World and still, Rome couldn't hold itself together. They were no better than the rest.

My position is that there is a possibility for a solution to any chess position to be represented in abstract mathematical rules that doesnt require exhausting every single move. I dont say its necessarily realistic but I am saying we dont know how realistic it is, until we have powerful tools for analysis. The tools will be more powerful in the future but will it be enough for the purposes of chess weak solution, unlikely.

OctopusOnSteroids
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

Dubrovnik says: "Because chess is a 100% tactical game. And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

So youre saying that the solution for any position cannot be proven without searching through every single legal move... For example a position that is fully locked with pawns, you must exhaust every single king move before you can prove its a draw.. The proof cannot be represented in a simpler rule set in your opinion. Okay then, I think this conversation is over.

Obviously there are positions which do not require searches. There's no point in insisting on pedantic rhetorical accuracy, since it should be fairly obvious that without potential king entry points or the possibility of sacrifice to gain entry, a position is drawn.

My position is much closer to Dubrovnik's and I only got irrritated because he seemed to be continually insisting on addressing player's posts, which I believe do not merit that.

I believe that a person who won't accept the possibility of luck in chess is arguing from an idealistic standpoint. For instance, maybe they don't accept that randomness exists, so no chance events exist, the outcomes of which we may or may not interpret as luck. That is an idealistic position, since it's a product only of mental interpretations which are not based on evidence.

The Platonists despised evidence and the search for it. They considered that to be the province of their equivalent of the "working classes" and certainly not the province of noble thought. It's why they were decadent and why the Romans conquered them and despised them but used them for their learning and mental abilities.

"And the only way to see and understand everything that will happen in every chess position. Is to look fully at the chess game tree with a full width search of the whole chess game tree. "

The full width search will work in EVERY chess position. I never said nothing else will work in some chess positions.

And that is obviously true.

The quote of yourself there and following statement "I never said nothing else will work in some chess positions" are in contradiction.. Understanding everything relevant thats going on in a position for the purpose of a weak solution doesnt require looking through every move, a set of simpler rules will cover for that. If you believe so too we are not in disagreement but you've misunderstood what has been talked about.

You are incorrect again. That is not a contradiction.

"And that is the point. The only search that works in everything. Is the full width search of the game tree of chess. As chess is a 100% tactical game."

Okay good then we are in agreement even though youre the one trying very hard to disagree here

VerifiedChessYarshe

Can someone summarize what are we arguing here?

OctopusOnSteroids
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:

Good, Mr. Dense. I hope you understand now that no rules, or AI magic can solve chess.

Only a full width search of the game tree of chess can accomplish that task.

No, wrong conclusion Mr. Dense. And on that note this is my last response to you on this topic for now, my position is fully explained above

OctopusOnSteroids
Optimissed wrote:

It isn't possible or viable, in the foreseeable future, to represent chess mathematically. As I mentioned, it's probably tens or hundreds of thousands of times more complex than some of the most advanced mathematical representations of problems in physics which are at the limit of what can be done mathematically, at the moment.

But you would probably agree with me that the solution to some positions can be represented in mathematical rules

VerifiedChessYarshe
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
VerifiedChessYarshe wrote:

Can someone summarize what are we arguing here?

Yes,

Chess will never be solved, here's why....

Basically people who believe in magic, and fantasy. Believe that you can solve chess with Rules. And a search of the whole game tree of chess in not needed. Why, because of Magic AI....

So what are your arguments to why chess won't be solved? Also people's arguments seems reasonable since a chess game is finite.

OctopusOnSteroids
VerifiedChessYarshe wrote:
Dubrovnik-1950 wrote:
VerifiedChessYarshe wrote:

Can someone summarize what are we arguing here?

Yes,

Chess will never be solved, here's why....

Basically people who believe in magic, and fantasy. Believe that you can solve chess with Rules. And a search of the whole game tree of chess in not needed. Why, because of Magic AI....

So what are your arguments to why chess won't be solved? Also people's arguments seems reasonable since a chess game is finite.

My opinion... If you come into a thread youre new with just read or follow until you catch up.. Then you can participate. No need to ask people to repeat their arguments thats not the most appropriate entrance to make

OctopusOnSteroids

A page or two would've been enough for starters... If its nonsense or not is hardly relevant as he implied he was interested in hearing the arguments anyway. Not that anybody should trust you as the judge of that...

You dont have to keep responding to me if you have nothing to say btw