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chess.com doesn't do itself credit

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TheOldReb
StairwayToTruth wrote:
SteveCollyer wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

Just because a bunch of people were banned in the past doesn't mean anything about this group.

Looking at your list I notice a guy like Gonnosuke... are you trying to tell me that after over 1000 games of alleged cheating that chess.com hasn't banned him?  Preposterous.


 

Ah yes, Gonnosuke, AKA Roy Gates.  Rated about 2000 OTB, yet ahead of all titled players in turn-based here.

Yes I have analysed Gonno, once with Deep Rybka 3 & once with Houdini 1.03a multi-processor engines.  Others have also analysed his games.

I have no idea why he's still here, tbh.


 I believe I could tell you why he's still here.

 

In my previous account, I got the chance to play Roy several times (15-20 at least). In most of these games, he was able to give me instructions and explanations that significantly exceeded the level of a 2000 player's understanding of chess.

I was also informed that his '2000' rating was from tournaments that he played 20 years ago. That's 2 DECADES ago. Slightly out of date, don't you think?

I also recall that his chess.com rating used to be in low 2000's when he was starting out here (which seems fairly accurate). I recall a steady increase in his rating over a couple of years - and his quality of play and understanding seemed to increase as well. The amount of time he spends on games (over 1000 of them, plus puzzles that he plays out and sometimes posts here) leaves me understanding how he could be a very strong player.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if, at this point in time, he entered several tournaments and came out with an IM designation. But hey, a hobby is a hobby.


It always amazes me that some people can be so gullible. 

Mortzy was banned for cheating. Apparently he was using a very strong engine . Gonnosuke played Mortzy 31 games , winning 22, drawing 9 and losing NONE. There is NO way to explain such a result other than one centaur beating another centaur. 

CharlyAZ
Elroch wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
Reb wrote:

http://www.chess.com/echess/game.html?id=44332534

here for example is a known B class player ( OTB ) that is a pawn up against a well known GM ... the GM is 2600 FIDE but here the B class player is also 200 points higher rated than the GM !??  Who thinks this B class player ust suddenly improved a lot ?!  


Naa, "edward hunting" is probably just his alias.  Besides if the guy was doing what you're suggesting then chess.com would ban him promptly.


I don't have enough information to express a judgmental opinion, but a club player playing at GM level at turn-based chess is suspicious, to say the least. But to balance this view, even before chess computers were at all strong there were correspondence chess specialists who were unknown over the board. In the (interesting) linked game, I feel Qb3 was a very natural move forcing the win of a pawn, so the loss of the pawn can be said to be a pawn sacrifice by the GM on the previous move. While to more average players, the risk of his knight being trapped could be missed, I doubt a GM playing turn-based chess would miss the danger. I don't claim to be strong enough to assess whether this gambit is sound or not.


Well, after the move a3 in the opening, I can tell the extraclass 2700' is not using a computer. He need it now though. Laughing

Besides, Julio sacrificed the pawn, he didn't need to. It could be justifiable because the open line b and the long diagonal, like a benko gambit. Besides, I know he likes this kind of challenges (we were mates at the same sport school and we shared the same coach). I will follow up this game.

Anyway, what is this thread all about? I have not read the whole thing. Who will be the pious soul to show me a shortcut?

CharlyAZ
WellRead wrote:

Some puffed up fellow opined:

"...chess.com is the best place to play chess online, bar none.  How can I back up such a bold statement?"

He goes on to bluster as if he's on the payroll.  If I may dear reader, please allow Haywood the Great to discuss the game of chess for a rare moment.  In real life, my rating is 1800 because of the floor, I can never go below.  In my prime, I was much higher.  Now, mainly due to too many health problems to bargain with, and because of my age, I can no longer improve.

However, the key to chess is calculation.  Once you learn the basics, sharpen your tactics, learn the principles of how to evaluate positions, then it comes down to how large is your brain.  Blindfold chess, using this site's chess mentor and really hitting the tactics daily will improve your chess. 

Why am I taking a rare detour to discuss the game of chess you may ask?  The answer is that most people never improve because they don't go where the pain is.  Most fops and sops study opening theory so they can yack like a raving canine and bark about the Sicilian, or the Bird, or the King's Indian, etc.  Foolishness if you ask Haywood.  It's calculation: the ability to count in your head.  If my blood sugar is in line and I've had at least four hours sleep, I can beat anybody.  But that's rare because of my chronic depression and nephritis which keeps me up at all hours of the night.

Finally, my post is aimed at aspiring Haywoods.  Chess players who suffer from severe ennui at how chess is taught, especially in the Dilapidated States of America.  If you need a big guy to mentor you, write to me and I'll coach you because I care about you.  LOP's (loving-obese-persons) are preferred, but all and everyone is welcome.

Your big guy,

Coach Haywood


 Really, calculation? I didn't know that.

TheOldReb

Wellread is a troll that believes he's funny .  Its best to ignore him/her/it. 

CharlyAZ
Reb wrote:

Wellread is a troll that believes he's funny .  Its best to ignore him/her/it. 


 Hillarious!!! it!!! Tongue out

waffllemaster
CharlyAZ wrote:

. . .
Anyway, what is this thread all about? I have not read the whole thing. Who will be the pious soul to show me a shortcut?


Waffllemaster (that's me!) uses sarcasm to complain about certain things because if I complained about this "thing" more openly the topic would be locked.  Chess.com prefers you complain about this sort of thing in a specially made group.

I didn't except this topic to last as long as it has.

StairwayToTruth

Considering that I've worked with a 2600 OTB grandmaster at least once, and played against some 2000+ players, I could certainly tell SOME difference between say, an 1800, a 2000, and a 2400. I have a decent chance at beating an 1800, a small chance of possibly outwitting a 2000 here and there (with a heck of a lot of luck), and just about no chance of even drawing against a 2400.

Additionally, I could definitely claim that his understanding of position, tactics, etc. definitely exceed that of 2200. His explanations were more in depth than even the 2600 with whom I worked once. Now, I'm not calling Gonnosuke a grandmaster, but he's certainly one of the strongest players I've worked with. An engine couldn't explain things like he did. >_>

On at least one occasion, I also noticed that he tends to spend a decent while on his moves on this website (notice he doesn't have that many games going on). With his strength and this amount of time, and chess.com's resources, I could understand how he'd make some incredibly strong moves.

Regarding his progression of strength, I seriously doubt that he came here with a strength of USCF 1700. Just because he stopped playing tournaments 20 years prior does NOT mean that he stopped playing chess altogether. He may have come here as a USCF 2000-2200 (around 2400 here) and started off by playing quicker moves (I used to do that as well --- I slowed down to analyze my moves deeper as I played more). After playing 2-3 years, I'm honestly not surprised that he would improve by the margin that he has improved!

 

But of course, I may be wrong. I'm typically not gullible - but from my experiences with him, I can't conclude that he's using an engine or otherwise cheating.

waffllemaster
StairwayToTruth wrote:

Considering that I've worked with a 2600 OTB grandmaster at least once, and played against some 2000+ players, I could certainly tell SOME difference between say, an 1800, a 2000, and a 2400. I have a decent chance at beating an 1800, a small chance of possibly outwitting a 2000 here and there (with a heck of a lot of luck), and just about no chance of even drawing against a 2400.

Additionally, I could definitely claim that his understanding of position, tactics, etc. definitely exceed that of 2200. His explanations were more in depth than even the 2600 with whom I worked once. Now, I'm not calling Gonnosuke a grandmaster, but he's certainly one of the strongest players I've worked with. An engine couldn't explain things like he did. >_>

On at least one occasion, I also noticed that he tends to spend a decent while on his moves on this website (notice he doesn't have that many games going on). With his strength and this amount of time, and chess.com's resources, I could understand how he'd make some incredibly strong moves.

Regarding his progression of strength, I seriously doubt that he came here with a strength of USCF 1700. Just because he stopped playing tournaments 20 years prior does NOT mean that he stopped playing chess altogether. He may have come here as a USCF 2000-2200 (around 2400 here) and started off by playing quicker moves (I used to do that as well --- I slowed down to analyze my moves deeper as I played more). After playing 2-3 years, I'm honestly not surprised that he would improve by the margin that he has improved!

 

But of course, I may be wrong. I'm typically not gullible - but from my experiences with him, I can't conclude that he's using an engine or otherwise cheating.


The amount of knowledge a person is able to express or teach is not related to their rating in the way you're suggesting.  I believe that OTB, the difference in strength between a 2000 and a 2400 is not noticeable to you.

You're not familiar with how ratings translate into winning chances?  Let me help you out.  Judging from your chess.com rating you're in the vicinity of 1400 USCF.  You're expected to score 8 point in a 100 game match vs an 1800 player, only 2 point in 100 games against a 2000 rated player.  You're right about the 0 vs a 2400 player though :)

So now he's even better than any human player alive Tongue out

Circular reasoning.  Or are you saying an expert + lots of time to think about moves = super GM (it doesn't :)

Exactally, like I said his hiatus means nothing so don't assume it does.

Of course not, you just played the guy, you can only guess.

Take it from me, who analysed his game.  Better, take it from steve, whose analysed games for multiple chess sites and multiple players here at chess.com.  If you private message him, he'll gladly send you the results.  Heck I think I still have mine somewhere too (although I'm not as experienced as steve), message me if you want to see mine too.

erik

i'll feel better advertising that when:

1. we get more titled players actually PLAYING more
2. we finish implementing our next anti-cheating system to catch more of the rats at the top of the list

we're getting there... 

StairwayToTruth

1400 USCF? 0_o

I was told about three years ago, by that 2600 GM I mentioned, that my strength was about 1600. I've improved significantly since then - I'd say I'm a fair 1800 USCF now. What rating are you looking at? >_>

 

Based on that, I'd say that I could probably tell SOME difference between a 2000 and a 2400 (obviously not every intricate detail). His explanations exceeded the knowledge and understanding I'd expect of a 2000 player, by FAR. VERY FAR.

Additionally, I'm completely sure that he did NOT come here as an expert. I'm sure he was AT LEAST 2000-2200 coming in. I wouldn't be surprised if he improved by 200+ over 3 years of consistent playing. You have some NMs, FMs, and IMs who have 2600+ chess.com ratings. It's possible that the reason he's one of the top two players is that he, with his strength, spends more time on his moves than those masters. Again, he told me that he stopped playing chess competitively, but he obviously plays a heck of a lot as a hobby.

 

Believe me, I'm very skeptical of things. I seriously believe that most people on the top few hundred here use some kind of engines at some point. Maybe Gonnosuke even used one every so often (in unrated games). But I really can't see him as being a cheater. In any case, chess.com would've banned him if they saw him as a cheater. Heck, they banned one of their staff (or mods, I forgot which) once because he admitted to cheating. Why wouldn't they ban Gonnosuke if they had enough conclusive evidence?

 

EDIT: I just saw Erik's post. We'll see what happens when this new system is implemented. For now, I'll just be an optimist. :D

waffllemaster

I was told by a group of players who I'd played with about every week for 3 months (they ranged from 1700 to 2100) that I was at least 1800 a year ago.  They were wrong, and I knew it, and I later (unfortunately) proved they were wrong in my next few tournaments.  I could go into what made them misunderstand my playing strength but that's another discussion.

I was basing your rating off of your live chess ratings here.  If they're old and you've improved, I'm sorry about that :) I didn't know.  It does seem within a year ago though you were 1400.  I'm not sure a GM can tell the difference between a 1400 and 1600 to be honest... but I really can't base that on anything other than intuition, so I may be wrong.

If you are 1800 strength, then you're correct, you could tell if someone was roughly 2000 or in fact way beyond 2000 :)

I've chatted with Gonnosuke (different ID) and read some blogs and posts he's made.  He seems very knowledgeable and a really nice guy.  I wonder though if you're basing your belief in his honesty because he is so congenial (and he is).

Why would they ban a staff member and not Gonno?  I don't know.  I really don't know.  I've PMed staff about it and eventually get no answer.  It's chess.com's business and I've stopped worrying about it.  If the analysis was even a little inconclusive then I'd tend to agree with you.  The numbers I got though left no room for doubt... no room.  Steve is also quite puzzled why Gonno is still here.

It's healthy to be skeptical, and you have your reasons, we may have to agree to disagree on this one :)

waffllemaster
erik wrote:

i'll feel better advertising that when:

1. we get more titled players actually PLAYING more
2. we finish implementing our next anti-cheating system to catch more of the rats at the top of the list

we're getting there... 


Just so you know erik, I think the site is great.  Just doing a bit of whining here. 

Thanks for the effort you and the staff have put towards #2, I know if you (or any site owner) had their way, it would be 100% cheat free... and as it is, it seems pertty darn good (relatively very very few cheats).

StairwayToTruth
waffllemaster wrote:

It's healthy to be skeptical, and you have your reasons, we may have to agree to disagree on this one :)


 I'll agree. ;)

I tried to not allow my personal fondness of Gonnosuke get in the way of evaluating whether I think he's cheating or not, but I certainly have not done the research and don't plan to (I don't care enough :P).

 

Off-topic: How about we play some standard-length Live games? I'd love to lose a few games and gain knowledge from them. ;)

waffllemaster
StairwayToTruth wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

It's healthy to be skeptical, and you have your reasons, we may have to agree to disagree on this one :)


 I'll agree. ;)

I tried to not allow my personal fondness of Gonnosuke get in the way of evaluating whether I think he's cheating or not, but I certainly have not done the research and don't plan to (I don't care enough :P).

 

Off-topic: How about we play some standard-length Live games? I'd love to lose a few games and gain knowledge from them. ;)


Hehe, I don't know how much I can teach you, especially if you're the one beating me Smile

But sure, I'm up for a game or two if you'd like.

StairwayToTruth
waffllemaster wrote:
StairwayToTruth wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

It's healthy to be skeptical, and you have your reasons, we may have to agree to disagree on this one :)


 I'll agree. ;)

I tried to not allow my personal fondness of Gonnosuke get in the way of evaluating whether I think he's cheating or not, but I certainly have not done the research and don't plan to (I don't care enough :P).

 

Off-topic: How about we play some standard-length Live games? I'd love to lose a few games and gain knowledge from them. ;)


Hehe, I don't know how much I can teach you, especially if you're the one beating me

But sure, I'm up for a game or two if you'd like.


 Awesome! I'll be back on in roughly an hour. How's 30 0?

waffllemaster

Oh man, 30/0 ?  I've never played a game online that long online before :)  I guess that's fine, but probably just one game of 30/0 if the game lasts a long time.

StairwayToTruth

Sounds good! It's the standard-length games that determine the real strengths of a player as compared to actual OTB games! (Although I still expect that I'll lose miserably :P)

See you then! :)

waffllemaster

I take every long game seriously in that I don't rule out the possibility that I'll be outplayed or make a terrible mistake.  In other words you may expect me to win, but I don't plan on it before the game :)

arichess

chess.com lets everyone get to play for free while with ICC you have pay for membership just to play a game after a 7 day free trial. The best of the best may want an exclusive club but I'm glad that there are enough strong players here so that everyone else can learn from them.

heinzie
waffllemaster wrote:
Why would they ban a staff member and not Gonno?  I don't know.  I really don't know.  I've PMed staff about it and eventually get no answer.  It's chess.com's business and I've stopped worrying about it.

dpruess? Erik?

wouldn't "fire" be the better terminology?