Could Carlsen beat engine

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eatchipss

for sure humans have a better undestanding of the requirements of a position than computers thats for sure

AngeloPardi
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
AngeloPardi írta:
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie írta:
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie írta:

Yes!  He's the best player in the history of the world and machines don't know how to plan.  He can steer the game into channels where human thinking trumps brute force calculation.  While he can't calculate nearly as fast a an engine engines have a horizon effect of 20 moves whereas Carlsen can see deeper than that, resulting in a more accurate assessment. 

Not trying to diss the guy, but how on Earth could Carlsen see deeper than an engine?
I understand the difference between the human thinking and pure engine, but there's no human that can see 20 moves deep.

Alekhine sometimes looked 30 moves ahead as shown sometimes in his best games collection. 

There is absolutely no way that anyone can look 20-30 move deep.
10, I can believe, but even that is extremely rare.
If you're talking 20 move deep, you're talking thousands of lines and variations.
No human can see that.
If you give them a pen and paper and a few hours, fine, I'll buy it.
But not without those. 

In endgames it perfectly possible do calculate down a line 20 moves ahead, but it's only due to the very limited number of moves available.

And each time you decide to exchange a bishop for a knight and to cripple your opponent pawn structure, you are looking twenty moves forward - of course, this doesn't mean that you have calculated every variation.

So we're talking about different stuff, then.
I understand that looking into 10-20 moves is possible if the moves are limited and are forcing (endgames or mating nets).
But an engine sees all lines and variations at any position.
This is what a human will never be able to do.

And this is exactly the reason why human player can still be a tiny bit better than computer in some positions : because, contrary to computers, they don't need to calculate every line to play a good move.

vittyvirus
AngeloPardi wrote:
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
AngeloPardi írta:
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie írta:
GnrfFrtzl wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie írta:

Yes!  He's the best player in the history of the world and machines don't know how to plan.  He can steer the game into channels where human thinking trumps brute force calculation.  While he can't calculate nearly as fast a an engine engines have a horizon effect of 20 moves whereas Carlsen can see deeper than that, resulting in a more accurate assessment. 

Not trying to diss the guy, but how on Earth could Carlsen see deeper than an engine?
I understand the difference between the human thinking and pure engine, but there's no human that can see 20 moves deep.

Alekhine sometimes looked 30 moves ahead as shown sometimes in his best games collection. 

There is absolutely no way that anyone can look 20-30 move deep.
10, I can believe, but even that is extremely rare.
If you're talking 20 move deep, you're talking thousands of lines and variations.
No human can see that.
If you give them a pen and paper and a few hours, fine, I'll buy it.
But not without those. 

In endgames it perfectly possible do calculate down a line 20 moves ahead, but it's only due to the very limited number of moves available.

And each time you decide to exchange a bishop for a knight and to cripple your opponent pawn structure, you are looking twenty moves forward - of course, this doesn't mean that you have calculated every variation.

So we're talking about different stuff, then.
I understand that looking into 10-20 moves is possible if the moves are limited and are forcing (endgames or mating nets).
But an engine sees all lines and variations at any position.
This is what a human will never be able to do.

And this is exactly the reason why human player can still be a tiny bit better than computer in some positions : because, contrary to computers, they don't need to calculate every line to play a good move.

No, as I said, engines don't see every move! Many times they miss something important.

vittyvirus
Jion_Wansu wrote:

Then the chess engines that chess.com uses are stupid. They fall for the same tricks

Chess.com computers aren't open source, so I can say nothing. I could've posted some of Stockfish's code here to explain but I'm afraid that there are very few programmers here.

Earth64

Try to solve  a mate in 2 or 3 problem from book of john Bayard, then u'll understand how worst the human thinking is.

vittyvirus
Wernher-von-Braun wrote:
vittyvirus wrote:
Jack_of_Clubs wrote:

Would someone like Carlsen be able to gain any kind of advantage by studying how Stockfish is programmed/coded in preparation for a match?

Very much, especially by studying evaluation. Stockfish is weak in quiet midgame positions involving a lot of planning, like those occuring after King's Indian Defence. Stockfish also is a agressive pruner. But I bet SF would murder Jose Raul Capablanca and all other players at endgames.

Joona Kiiski on where Stockfish is weak:

* Classical king's Indian kind of blocked positions where "black" slowly develops dangerous attack. Stockfish playing with "white" has no clue what is happening until it's far too late.

* Stockfish is far too optimistic in late midgame positions where it has material advantage, but its king has no real shelter and queens are still on board. The risk that opponent is able to force perpetual check is great, but Stockfish has no understanding of this.

 

* Stockfish greatly overvalues connected passed pawns when opponent can create a blockade with his pieces. Luckily this doesn't happen very often in practice.

 

* Stockfish is too optimistic in late endgame with very few pawns, like KNP vs. KN or KBPP vs. KBP which often liquidate to draw.

* Stockfish still lacks basic endgame knowledge for some trivial drawn positions like KQ vs. KP when pawn is on "c2" or "a2"

How does this compare to other strong engines, such as the latest Komodo or Houdini or Rybka?

Komodo, Rybka and Houdini are not open-source, so I can say nothing about them. But Komodo is very good in positional play due to a very good evaluation which is guided by GM Larry Kaufman. Same for Rybka (GM Larry Kaufman was also a member of Rybka team). For Houdini, we see that it's pretty good in quickly recognizing tactics. We see this not by giving them to solve mate in two's, but some _insanely_ difficult test suites to torcher them, and Houdini usually solves the most.

Undoubtly, we should use and support Stockfish, becuase it's free and open-source. Many commercial engine authors also take ideas from Stockfish...

One more point worth noting is that Stockfish is an _extremely_ great endgame player. Give it 5-man syzygy bases, and I bet it'd dominate Jose Raul Capablanca.

doppelgangsterII
vacumm wrote:

Could carlsen beat a engine  

 

Maybe an old Ford flathead but these new turbo charged diesels, forgetaboutit....

SandyJames

GainzInfinite

As someone who has followed computer chess since 1998 or so, I think Carlsen would have no chance against any of the top few engines.

Admittedly he does have the ideal style for beating an engine, but so did Kramnik in his prime and Kramnik lost to a much weaker engine than Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini and co, plus was on yesterdays hardware.

The problem is that before engines had their "blind spots" which top grandmasters could exploit, but as programming gets more and more sophisticated, these gaps in understanding are being closed.

Recently Ive been watching the top engines play a few games against yesterdays engines on my pc and the level is mind-boggling.

They can do basically everything now (including complex endgmes even without tablebases plus positional sacrifices which used to be "holes" in their knowledge, plus other stuff) and unlike humans they dont make tactical mistakes, but even so there might be the odd win or two where Carlsen caught the engine in a blind spot, but then again maybe not.

I remember once in 2008 a famous IM chess trainer said to me (as i offered to send him the updated Rybka 3) "No need, how much stronger can they really get?"

Rybka 3 is fishbait for the current crop of engines...

And the engine that beat Kramnik (Deep Fritz, I think) is fishbait for Rybka 3...think of that.

vittyvirus

GM fernando had to do a lot of work and finally beated Stockfish.

kiloNewton
vittyvirus wrote:

GM fernando had to do a lot of work and finally beated Stockfish.

interesting. can you provide more info on that?

DarkVlader
eatchipss wrote:

we know some positions computer evaluate wrongly, so without opening book it could be in some trouble against a top GM

No it wouldn't. Those are mainly the wackiest of positions that were discovered by humans just to make fun of computers and are rarely if nt never seen in practice. Plus, a computer would not simply let a human steer towards one of those positions, it would do something about it! Just look at the statistics: Even with pawn odds a human has never beaten a modern engine.  I believe the slosest was when GM Roman Dzindzichashvili drew a match with pawn odds against a REALLY EARLY VERSION OF RYBKA which, by the way, had previously destroyed other top GMs at the time such as Jel Benjamin when those GMs also had pawn odds. Now I know Carlsen is much better than Dzindzichashvili, but Stockfish 6 and Komodo 8 and Houdini 4 are WAAAY better than the first version of Rybka! Stockfish 5 destroyed Naka and Naroditsky and we've all heard about how handicapped Stockfsh was in those matches. There is just no hope for humans against computers unless the humans have at least an extra piece.

GainzInfinite
DarkVlader wrote:
eatchipss wrote:

we know some positions computer evaluate wrongly, so without opening book it could be in some trouble against a top GM

No it wouldn't. Those are mainly the wackiest of positions that were discovered by humans just to make fun of computers and are rarely if nt never seen in practice. Plus, a computer would not simply let a human steer towards one of those positions, it would do something about it! Just look at the statistics: Even with pawn odds a human has never beaten a modern engine.  I believe the slosest was when GM Roman Dzindzichashvili drew a match with pawn odds against a REALLY EARLY VERSION OF RYBKA which, by the way, had previously destroyed other top GMs at the time such as Jel Benjamin when those GMs also had pawn odds. Now I know Carlsen is much better than Dzindzichashvili, but Stockfish 6 and Komodo 8 and Houdini 4 are WAAAY better than the first version of Rybka! Stockfish 5 destroyed Naka and Naroditsky and we've all heard about how handicapped Stockfsh was in those matches. There is just no hope for humans against computers unless the humans have at least an extra piece.

Another important point to note is that the overestimation of opening books is out of place in this day and age.

What is opening theory made up of? The games of human players, right?

So it goes without saying that today's engines can just "figure out" theoretical lines and in many cases play undiscovered novelties.

Playing AGAINST the top engines today is an exercise in destroying ones own confidence in their own chess.

The top engines are excellent for analysis though.

I like to play training games against engines which are weaker and have been programmed to play in more of a human style (such as chess system tal 2, prodeo 1.6, Wchess and phalanx) and then ANALYZE those games with the 3200 level engines...this can give huge insight into chess and improvement at little cost.

These human-like engines I mentioned approach the position from a very "knowledge based" perspective arent arent simple number crunchers.

You get the feeling that you are playing a real human when the play is "realistic" and you arent being crushed ridiculously by the overwhelming strength of an entitity that even Carlsen himself couldnt handle.

my point is that the top engines are WAY too strong as opponents for humans, but that there are available engines which CAN be excellent training partners for humans.

For this interested, here are a couple of the training games I've played with these "human-like" engines so far at standard time controls (except the phalanx one, which is an example why blitz against engines isnt a good idea!Laughing).

Ive found my play to be a little different after training with them, especially Prodeo 1.6 using its "Tal" Personality can be seen below.

What's remarkable is the way it really does resemble Tal's style in the below games.

So as you can see, these guys give pretty good and challenging training games without being SO strong that its irresistable.

These particular engines also don't play "artificial" looking moves like some engines do and seem to resemble more human play.

Faran25

carlsen cannot even draw a game against houdini or stockfish, but he is the best player in the world

paw-paw

Why nobody asks the right question: if you use a cluster of GPUs, then of course a machine would easily beat any human mind, but it would also probably use the energy of a human lifetime. I think the right question and challenge for computer programmers is: given a limited amount watts per hour, say that used by a human for thinking, design a chess program stronger than a human. My guess is that machines are still very far beyond humans for that.

To my point of view, a good question is : what is the elo/watt hour of a computer? I tend to think it is way below good humans.

 

nimzomalaysian
vittyvirus wrote:
Jion_Wansu wrote:

Then the chess engines that chess.com uses are stupid. They fall for the same tricks

Chess.com computers aren't open source, so I can say nothing. I could've posted some of Stockfish's code here to explain but I'm afraid that there are very few programmers here.

Oh please. I want to see how you explain Stockfish's code.

BronsteinPawn

He wouldnt explain anything, he would just go into the GitHub page of Stockfish and read the comments within the code.

php8k1uWd.jpeg

GnrfFrtzl
paw-paw wrote:

Why nobody asks the right question: if you use a cluster of GPUs, then of course a machine would easily beat any human mind, but it would also probably use the energy of a human lifetime. I think the right question and challenge for computer programmers is: given a limited amount watts per hour, say that used by a human for thinking, design a chess program stronger than a human. My guess is that machines are still very far beyond humans for that.

To my point of view, a good question is : what is the elo/watt hour of a computer? I tend to think it is way below good humans.

 

 

There is no point in comparing, because humans don't run off electricity.

It's like when some are trying to count how many pixels or what framerate our eyes can see. Well, the world isn't made of pixels, or frames, so it's pointless.

 

But answering your question: it depends.
It depends on the processor the machine uses, the type of drive the software is installed onto, background processes, operating system, amount of ram, etc. etc.

But then again, a now ancient computer from the 90's with a 2$ single processor and 256 MB of ram will easily destroy most GMs.

Even a smart phone from 5 years ago (double core processor, 512 mb ram) with Stockfish on it will destroy Carlsen 10/10.

Pulpofeira

Yermo got an even result vs. Fritz4 running on a Pentium 166 in 1997, time control 10/0.

lfPatriotGames

To Gnrf

I thought humans did run off electricity. Or more accurately, run on electricity. I thought that's why they used those defib machines for people with stopped hearts. And why they say the brain is dead only when there is no longer any electrical activity. Paw paws idea seems like a pretty good one, compare a human and computer to how much effort (or electricity) goes into it.