Difference between 1400 and 1600 rated players.

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Shivsky

Skwerly wrote:

No way!  If you saw some of the silly games that even experts lose, you would not consider this lol.  1800 USCF really only means that you've done some opening work and are no longer losing so much to the 1500s - *so much*. 

I believe that the CCT system is practiced regularly by 2000+ players.  After 2000, things start to get more solid IMO.  :)


This isn't really true either. My friend is rating 2100 uscf and he blunders quite often especially in short games. You would be suprised


I didn't quote absolutes, I merely pitched statistics => saying 2000+ USCF players look at all the Checks/Captures/Threats and make sure they can deal with them before making their move 95-100% of the time. That means, in two 50-move games, the expert+ player will slip just 0-5 times.  Notice I'm talking "missing a SINGLE MOVE check, a threat or a capture" until the opponent plays it. 

Do you realize how "big of a deal" that is at a near-master level of chess?

Do you mean to say "most" 2000+ USCF players will screw up something this big WORSE THAN 2.5 times for every 50 moves? I don't think this 2100 friend of yours is doing a good job representing the entire chess playing fraternity of expert players... I now know atleast 7 (and counting) 2000+ players who swear that they don't miss a "CCT" safety-check on more than one move per game if at all they miss it ... and even if they do, they feel pretty darn embarrassed about that.

Let's have the big guns weigh in. Is this very basic, very rudimentary "good habit" that hard to incorporate into one's thought process, especially when one enters the top 0.1% percentile of all chess players in the world?

KingCrimson
CircleSquaredd wrote:

Are you guys talking about your OTB rating or chess.com Online rating?


I initially started the thread discussing chess.com ratings.  I never have a chance to play OTB due to no one in my family playing and the only chess club i know of here locally meets on a night that i just cant make due to coaching my son in various sports pending on time of year.  We are still doing baseball now and should wrap it up within two weeks but on July 20th we start football.  Then after that its basketball and back to baseball.

SuperBlonde
N-k5 wrote:

Looking at the few games that I've played here, ih8sens seems pretty accurate.  Anything significantly below 1400, and pieces start flying off of the board.

Along the same line of thought, what's the difference between 1600 and 1800 players at chess.com? I've never played anyone at the latter level.


 I've played a few 1800s, and for me they seem to be really hard.

They do not make any kind of stupid mistakes, and losing a piece in the middle game usually starts rolling the credits for the show.

An example below (game not analyzed except my mistake, score values from Fruit):

hanngo
steevmartuns wrote:

Take this with a grain of salt; these are just observations and are not meant to be a stereotype of these levels of players. I believe, having played a lot of both groups over time, that the primary differences are:

1400s

- Still drop pieces

- Some opening knowledge but tend to deviate/lose opening advantage easily (for instance, things like 1. d4 Nf6 2. e3)

- Basic tactical understanding (the major fork squares on c2/f2 at the outset, things like that)

- Do not usually create a plan

- Usually castle in their games, but have not yet learned the concepts of how to use the Rooks in the middlegame

- Only tend to spot overt errors (dropped pieces/mate in 1 or 2)

 

1600s

- Usually drop pawns at the worst

- More opening knowledge, may use Game Explorer more often, choose stronger openings overall

- More tactical understanding - back rank weaknesses, forks, pins, skewers (extent varies but it's almost always significantly more than a 1400)

- Sometimes have a plan; basic strategy (which side to castle is safer, basic pawn thrusts, etc.)

- Castle either side and understand where Rooks should be placed; may or may not understand "doubling" of Rooks yet

- Spot tactical errors (opponent allows forks, walks into a mating net, etc)

 

Knowledge of the endgame is widely varied among these players; some may already know the Lucena position while others don't yet know that the king must be active in the endgame.

So, the 200-point rating gap is significant. Against a 1600, it's probably a lot more important to watch for opening traps or to be sure to play strong moves from the outset, since they will understand when a player is not taking any action in the center or not developing pieces well. They also tend to understand weaknesses of doubled pawns, backward pawns, and misplaced/wrong color pieces - more positional info than a 1400 may have learned so far.


EDIT: I guess I should answer the original question, too. Spend a good bit of time with the Tactics Trainer. I know this is constantly stated, but it's really important for a developing player. If you can achieve 1700 on the TT, you've got a solid understanding of basic tactics that can match or exceed a 1600 player. They teach you how to attack on the kingside and how to exploit the placement of your opponent's pieces.

It's also highly recommended to play with a plan. The basic rule of thumb is - once you've castled, you should have a plan. Do I attack kingside? Push on the queenside? Double on an open file? Push my strong center forward? Try and trade off the pieces protecting the king? This is up to you, and the specific board setup.


UMMM,,BUT MY tt RATING IS 1900-2300 AT THE MOMENT,but MY CORRONSPONDE RATING IS FLOATING IN THE 1400-1700s i'm stuck like this for several months,how to improve?

atomichicken
LYCAN148 wrote:
steevmartuns wrote:

Take this with a grain of salt; these are just observations and are not meant to be a stereotype of these levels of players. I believe, having played a lot of both groups over time, that the primary differences are:

1400s

- Still drop pieces

- Some opening knowledge but tend to deviate/lose opening advantage easily (for instance, things like 1. d4 Nf6 2. e3)

- Basic tactical understanding (the major fork squares on c2/f2 at the outset, things like that)

- Do not usually create a plan

- Usually castle in their games, but have not yet learned the concepts of how to use the Rooks in the middlegame

- Only tend to spot overt errors (dropped pieces/mate in 1 or 2)

 

1600s

- Usually drop pawns at the worst

- More opening knowledge, may use Game Explorer more often, choose stronger openings overall

- More tactical understanding - back rank weaknesses, forks, pins, skewers (extent varies but it's almost always significantly more than a 1400)

- Sometimes have a plan; basic strategy (which side to castle is safer, basic pawn thrusts, etc.)

- Castle either side and understand where Rooks should be placed; may or may not understand "doubling" of Rooks yet

- Spot tactical errors (opponent allows forks, walks into a mating net, etc)

 

Knowledge of the endgame is widely varied among these players; some may already know the Lucena position while others don't yet know that the king must be active in the endgame.

So, the 200-point rating gap is significant. Against a 1600, it's probably a lot more important to watch for opening traps or to be sure to play strong moves from the outset, since they will understand when a player is not taking any action in the center or not developing pieces well. They also tend to understand weaknesses of doubled pawns, backward pawns, and misplaced/wrong color pieces - more positional info than a 1400 may have learned so far.


EDIT: I guess I should answer the original question, too. Spend a good bit of time with the Tactics Trainer. I know this is constantly stated, but it's really important for a developing player. If you can achieve 1700 on the TT, you've got a solid understanding of basic tactics that can match or exceed a 1600 player. They teach you how to attack on the kingside and how to exploit the placement of your opponent's pieces.

It's also highly recommended to play with a plan. The basic rule of thumb is - once you've castled, you should have a plan. Do I attack kingside? Push on the queenside? Double on an open file? Push my strong center forward? Try and trade off the pieces protecting the king? This is up to you, and the specific board setup.


UMMM,,BUT MY tt RATING IS 1900-2300 AT THE MOMENT,but MY CORRONSPONDE RATING IS FLOATING IN THE 1400-1700s i'm stuck like this for several months,how to improve?


Of course when you know the tactic is there it's a lot easier to find. Don't use any kind of TT rating as a true definition of your tactical strength..

How often so you look for CTTs? In my opinion when all someone's thinking for a move is "this looks good" (that was I think mostly what I was doing when I was your level), that isn't to do with ability just laziness. It's likely you won't that often actually find all of your opponent's CTTs but the important thing is there's nothing (apart from the clock) stopping you from looking each and every move..

I suspect at 1400-1700 if you spot (and actually look) more than your opponents you will usually win..

happyfanatic

I don't think you can easily say, this is what a 1400 does and this is what a 1600 does.  Every player has a different combination of strengths and weaknesses in their game.  Although, in general, the single largest determinant of your playing strength at the class level has to be your grasp of tactics and your ability to avoid making devastating mistakes that are dropping material and allowing mates to occur.  

iwilltry
SuperBlonde wrote:
N-k5 wrote:

Looking at the few games that I've played here, ih8sens seems pretty accurate.  Anything significantly below 1400, and pieces start flying off of the board.

Along the same line of thought, what's the difference between 1600 and 1800 players at chess.com? I've never played anyone at the latter level.


 I've played a few 1800s, and for me they seem to be really hard.

They do not make any kind of stupid mistakes, and losing a piece in the middle game usually starts rolling the credits for the show.

An example below (game not analyzed except my mistake, score values from Fruit):

 


You should not be able to win after losing a piece, nor lose after winning a piece. This is a rule.

iwilltry
happyfanatic wrote:

I don't think you can easily say, this is what a 1400 does and this is what a 1600 does.  Every player has a different combination of strengths and weaknesses in their game.  Although, in general, the single largest determinant of your playing strength at the class level has to be your grasp of tactics and your ability to avoid making devastating mistakes that are dropping material and allowing mates to occur.  


lol. and if you make those mistakes, you're rated lower.

zingo79

I know lots of this 1400 1600 skills, even if I'm not great at implementing them, I understand a bit and do lots of tactics, but at last I'm only rated 1250. Here. :D

zingo79

It isn't like I make a material blunder.. often. It's that my opponent makes a strange move that is strategically bad, usually not tactically, and I'm unsure on how to punish them so they get an advantage when I should have one. Oh well....

Rasparovov

the 1400 is bad the 1600 is a little less bad.

TetsuoShima
Rasparovov wrote:

the 1400 is bad the 1600 is a little less bad.


i agree

pdve

ive played a few 1800s and what seems to set them apart from 1600s is that they don't make moves which turn out to not make sense later on. they do tend to be more organized in their approach.

now, can someone explain the difference between a 1800 and a 2000? :p

waffllemaster
pdve wrote:

ive played a few 1800s and what seems to set them apart from 1600s is that they don't make moves which turn out to not make sense later on. they do tend to be more organized in their approach.

now, can someone explain the difference between a 1800 and a 2000? :p

Each 200 points is just a little bit better.  Nothing amazing.  Sees a few more tactics, knows the plans a little bit better, visualization, endgames, openings etc.

Maybe the only time this isn't true is for players under 1600... I'm referring to Dan Heisman's "hope chess."  Perhaps at those levels you could add mental discipline to play safe moves.

pdve

well, just to keep this interesting, what exactly is the difference between and IM and a GM?

MrDamonSmith

About 200 rating points.Cool

 

Edit: Darn, your first sentence addressed that. You knew that one was coming.

TetsuoShima
pdve wrote:

well, just to keep this interesting, what exactly is the difference between and IM and a GM?

it depends on the IM and GM i would think

pdve
MrDamonSmith wrote:

About 200 rating points.

I meant in the way they approach the game.

It also never stops fascinating me to watch houdini play rybka or stockfish.

TetsuoShima

Its also funny when you see GM do sloppy analysis miss thinks and stuff and you have IMs that to really accurate analysis and you never find a flaw no mater how hard you look.

I mean not ingame necessarily but it still a bit strange in my opinion.

TetsuoShima
pdve wrote:
MrDamonSmith wrote:

About 200 rating points.

I meant in the way they approach the game.

It also never stops fascinating me to watch houdini play rybka or stockfish.


to be honest i dont believe there is a big difference. not that i have ever been 1600 or i even have 1400 in otb