Do you think prepetual check/three fold repetition is honorable?

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Markle
Marshal_Dillon wrote: lanceuppercut_239 wrote: exiledcanuck wrote:

I don't understand how one can even begin to think that any act(that is logically within the rules)  stopping your opponent winning  could be construde as cheap/unfair/unsportsmanlike.

 Imagine what the rules of chess would look like if you added in a clause that said "playing for the draw is prohibited" which is pretty much what your asking us to say we agree with.


 Exactly. Imagine a football team down by 3 points, in field goal range, with 2 seconds left in the game. Is it dishonorable for them to kick the field goal? Or should they just give up and "take the beating that is coming" like a man, as one of our friends here has (jokingly, I think) suggested?


 You choose a poor example with football. In football the game continues until a winner is decided. There are no draws. Eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and giving the win to one player or the other would simplify the game of chess immensely. In a real battle, if I bring 50,000 men to the field and you bring 50,000 men to the field and you make a tactical error resulting in the loss of 30,000 of your men, how do you figure you deserve a draw?


All football games do not end with a winner, although rare some have been ties As for the battle, if the 20,000 men i have left can hold off 50,000 then yes it should be a draw And lastly you state that eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and awarding the game to one player would simplify the game.The game of chess is a battle and just because one player has the better position at the moment does not mean he or she should just be awarded the win if the opponent can find a way to save the game and draw then he should do so if you want a game that is simple then maybe you should give up chess and try something else.


Marshal_Dillon
Markle wrote: Marshal_Dillon wrote: lanceuppercut_239 wrote: exiledcanuck wrote:

I don't understand how one can even begin to think that any act(that is logically within the rules)  stopping your opponent winning  could be construde as cheap/unfair/unsportsmanlike.

 Imagine what the rules of chess would look like if you added in a clause that said "playing for the draw is prohibited" which is pretty much what your asking us to say we agree with.


 Exactly. Imagine a football team down by 3 points, in field goal range, with 2 seconds left in the game. Is it dishonorable for them to kick the field goal? Or should they just give up and "take the beating that is coming" like a man, as one of our friends here has (jokingly, I think) suggested?


 You choose a poor example with football. In football the game continues until a winner is decided. There are no draws. Eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and giving the win to one player or the other would simplify the game of chess immensely. In a real battle, if I bring 50,000 men to the field and you bring 50,000 men to the field and you make a tactical error resulting in the loss of 30,000 of your men, how do you figure you deserve a draw?


All football games do not end with a winner, although rare some have been ties As for the battle, if the 20,000 men i have left can hold off 50,000 then yes it should be a draw And lastly you state that eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and awarding the game to one player would simplify the game.The game of chess is a battle and just because one player has the better position at the moment does not mean he or she should just be awarded the win if the opponent can find a way to save the game and draw then he should do so if you want a game that is simple then maybe you should give up chess and try something else.


 Maybe in college football they allow draws, but every professional football game I have ever seen where regular time ran out with a tie score went into overtime for as long as necessary for someone to score. 

I am also not talking about games where there is still a lot of material left on the board where someone can pull a surprise win out of their hat in spite of being down material. I am talking about endgames where someone has a king and minor piece against a bare king. The player with the material should win in spite of not being able to mate. They outplayed the other to the tune of a bishop or knight and should be rewarded for playing the superior game. Games where one player has a rook versus the other players minor piece are another example. Rook and king can give checkmate. Minor piece and king cannot and at some point in the game I would have had to win an exchange against you that you weren't able to equalize in order for me to have that rook. If you weren't able to equalize during the game, why should you be considered equal after the game?  I am also referring to situations like stalemate where you might have your bare king versus my 2 rooks, knight, queen and king but now you can't move without stepping into check. You obviously played so poorly during the game that you allowed me to strip you bare with minimal losses to myself so why do you deserve anything? 

 


Torkil
Marshal_Dillon wrote:

Besides, I was feeling generous that game and he played well enough that I thought he deserved at least a draw, so I gave it to him.


Ahhh, now we are getting down to business. So you want to award a draw when you feel it is deserved, but don't want it forced upon you by the ingenuity of a tough defender. Well, that's something to think about...

Honestly, I can't see any point at all in making a difference between certain types of drawing and even less in banning the more exciting possibilities of a draw. 

And for the last time:

A player who fails to win a winning position has no reason to consider himself superior. As has been pointed out before, it is a typical beginner's behaviour to blame the rules for one's mistakes.

A position which contains a forced possibility of a repitition or a stalemate is simply not winning, and I don't see why it should be. In this point I like the picture of the remaining 20.000 holding the ground against unfavourable odds.


Marshal_Dillon
Markle wrote: Marshal_Dillon wrote: lanceuppercut_239 wrote: exiledcanuck wrote:

I don't understand how one can even begin to think that any act(that is logically within the rules)  stopping your opponent winning  could be construde as cheap/unfair/unsportsmanlike.

 Imagine what the rules of chess would look like if you added in a clause that said "playing for the draw is prohibited" which is pretty much what your asking us to say we agree with.


 Exactly. Imagine a football team down by 3 points, in field goal range, with 2 seconds left in the game. Is it dishonorable for them to kick the field goal? Or should they just give up and "take the beating that is coming" like a man, as one of our friends here has (jokingly, I think) suggested?


 You choose a poor example with football. In football the game continues until a winner is decided. There are no draws. Eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and giving the win to one player or the other would simplify the game of chess immensely. In a real battle, if I bring 50,000 men to the field and you bring 50,000 men to the field and you make a tactical error resulting in the loss of 30,000 of your men, how do you figure you deserve a draw?


All football games do not end with a winner, although rare some have been ties As for the battle, if the 20,000 men i have left can hold off 50,000 then yes it should be a draw And lastly you state that eliminating most of the conditions that are considered a draw and awarding the game to one player would simplify the game.The game of chess is a battle and just because one player has the better position at the moment does not mean he or she should just be awarded the win if the opponent can find a way to save the game and draw then he should do so if you want a game that is simple then maybe you should give up chess and try something else.


 What I'm talking about here is not a situation where the two sides are allowed to fight it out. I am talking about a situation where you have the remaining armies of 20,000 and 50,000 still on the field able to fight to a decisive finish but not being allowed to because some arbitrary rule dictates that the outcome of the battle is a draw even though one side has a clear advantage over the other. 

 

As for stalemate, I see it as a situation where one side is no longer able to continue the battle due to being pinned down by the enemy and not able to get up without their head being shot off. In war when one side is no longer able to fight, they surrender or die. It's as simple as that. Stalemate should be a loss for the stalemated player. 


lanceuppercut_239
Marshal_Dillon wrote: 

I am also not talking about games where there is still a lot of material left on the board where someone can pull a surprise win out of their hat in spite of being down material. I am talking about endgames where someone has a king and minor piece against a bare king. The player with the material should win in spite of not being able to mate. They outplayed the other to the tune of a bishop or knight and should be rewarded for playing the superior game. Games where one player has a rook versus the other players minor piece are another example. Rook and king can give checkmate. Minor piece and king cannot and at some point in the game I would have had to win an exchange against you that you weren't able to equalize in order for me to have that rook. If you weren't able to equalize during the game, why should you be considered equal after the game?  I am also referring to situations like stalemate where you might have your bare king versus my 2 rooks, knight, queen and king but now you can't move without stepping into check. You obviously played so poorly during the game that you allowed me to strip you bare with minimal losses to myself so why do you deserve anything? 


 I don't follow your logic. If you're ok with a player winning despite being down material, that what's wrong with drawing despite being down material?

The object of the game is to checkmate the opposing king - not to win more material than the other side. If neither player can acheive checkmate - the object of the game - the game ends in a draw. How is that unfair?


Marshal_Dillon
lanceuppercut_239 wrote: Marshal_Dillon wrote: 

I am also not talking about games where there is still a lot of material left on the board where someone can pull a surprise win out of their hat in spite of being down material. I am talking about endgames where someone has a king and minor piece against a bare king. The player with the material should win in spite of not being able to mate. They outplayed the other to the tune of a bishop or knight and should be rewarded for playing the superior game. Games where one player has a rook versus the other players minor piece are another example. Rook and king can give checkmate. Minor piece and king cannot and at some point in the game I would have had to win an exchange against you that you weren't able to equalize in order for me to have that rook. If you weren't able to equalize during the game, why should you be considered equal after the game?  I am also referring to situations like stalemate where you might have your bare king versus my 2 rooks, knight, queen and king but now you can't move without stepping into check. You obviously played so poorly during the game that you allowed me to strip you bare with minimal losses to myself so why do you deserve anything? 


 I don't follow your logic. If you're ok with a player winning despite being down material, that what's wrong with drawing despite being down material?

The object of the game is to checkmate the opposing king - not to win more material than the other side. If neither player can acheive checkmate - the object of the game - the game ends in a draw. How is that unfair?


 Is it fair in a war when the other side has no hope of beating you and can no longer fight that the war be declared a draw? 


lanceuppercut_239
Marshal_Dillon wrote:

 Is it fair in a war when the other side has no hope of beating you and can no longer fight that the war be declared a draw? 


 I think the problem is that the warfare analogy falls apart here. Ok, a couple things here:

1. You mentioned cases where you think stalemates are unfair (K+R+R vs K, etc). If the guy with king, rook, rook stalemates the guy with only a king then under the rules of chess, neither side can win.

2. Cases like K+B vs K are draws because once again, neither side can win.

3. Perpetual check (as a special case of three-fold repetition) is a draw because one guy could just keep checking the other guy constantly. Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back. Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back.Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back.Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back.Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back.Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back.Check, he moves his king. Check, he moves it back. Once again, neither side can win.

If neither side can win, then surely the game should be declared a draw! 


Marshal_Dillon
De-Lar wrote:

lol your talking about fair? 

 

Look at the korean war Marshal_Dillon.  Tell me what happened in that war.


Technically, the Korean War hasn't ended yet. A cease fire exists, but no formal peace treaty was ever signed between the North and South Koreans. Negotiations have been ongoing ever since the cease fire with tensions flaring from time to time but no agreement as to terms has yet been reached. Theoretically, the shooting could start up again at any time.


Taxi

It seems a strange question/debate to me. If I am loosing and the other players gives me their Queen by mistake, then of course I take it. This seems just the same to me.

As far as do I like the rule... I am not sure it matters..These are the rules of the game, a bit like being able to castle and like bishops not being able to jump over pawns! Straight forward rules of the game.

When this happens against me, I don't think that the player has been dis-honourable, I just kick myself for allowing it to happen..lol


Marshal_Dillon
De-Lar wrote: I served over there for a year, you talk like it's ready to start up again any second.  It's a draw war, nobody won.  It doesn't matter about anything.  The korean war is a stalemate.  Nobody won, we couldn't finish them off.  So they don't automaticly lose.

Correction. The North Koreans were destroyed and retreated into China. The UN forces had them beat. It was only because of Douglas McArthur violating orders from Truman not to antagonize the Chinese that they got involved and hit the UN line with 300,000 men. If he had stayed away from the Chinese border like he was told, we would have won that war.


LDSSDL

One game I messed up a kingside attack and ended up horribly down in material. I got him into a perpetual check that he couldn't stop without losing material, so I offered him a draw. He refused, and sacrificed material to get out of the perpetual without calculating if he would still be ahead. I ended up coming out on top with a better position, and with better endgame play I won.

If your opponent fell into the perpetual check when they could have prevented that, is it all that different from falling into a mate they could have prevented? It's your opponent's job to protect his king, and if you can attack it you should, regardless of the method or whether it ends in a perpetual or mate, as long as it is legal. 


Ramson_X
if your oponent played so well to win, but , he went too confident to see you can draw by perpetual check, then he deserve to have to share the point.   if i draw a game that way (perpetual or tree fold rep.) then I shake hands and say "congratulations, you really played well but missed the draw".  I hope you got my point
dlordmagic
Pulling a draw out of a lost game is valid. The real challenge comes with the other player in not allowing it in the first place.
ewige
What's with knights beign able to attack pieces through other pieces? This is clearly dishonorable and only cowards perform any attacks under such conditions. I let my knights sit where they start, and berate those who do otherwise.
Marshal_Dillon
ewige wrote: What's with knights beign able to attack pieces through other pieces? This is clearly dishonorable and only cowards perform any attacks under such conditions. I let my knights sit where they start, and berate those who do otherwise.

Don't be stupid. That's how knights move. It has nothing to do with many of the current forms of drawing being disallowed.


Marshal_Dillon
De-Lar wrote: Marshal_Dillon wrote: ewige wrote: What's with knights beign able to attack pieces through other pieces? This is clearly dishonorable and only cowards perform any attacks under such conditions. I let my knights sit where they start, and berate those who do otherwise.

Don't be stupid. That's how knights move. It has nothing to do with many of the current forms of drawing being disallowed.


 LMAO,  why on earth would you call somebody stupid after the argument you're trying to make.

 

 


There is nothing stupid about the argument I am trying to make. If a group of respected GM's with the power to influence FIDE to change the rules disallowing most forms of draws were making these recommendations you wouldn't call any of them stupid. 

 

Seriously, though, if FIDE announced tomorrow that the rules of chess have changed and they have eliminated 90% of the drawing possibilities would you quit playing chess or would you hush up and learn to live with it? 


mariaclara

I believe this rule is  appropriate. It is still 0.5 points to both, nobody loses but everybody wins.  Possible that this  has been a rule for a long time. I want to know its history, though.

And it is difficult to achieve a game where it will be a draw by 3-moves repetition. What is the statistics of chess games ending this way? 


Michael_Sarmiento
chess is a game of strategies and tactics.  Perpetual check is a strategy that one can use at his disposal if possible to prevent a loss and gaining half point for it.One have to think and prevent possible perpetual check or a drawing position if you are the winning player.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Pistoleer

I know we are talking sepecifically about perp check and 3 move rule, but... some tournies do consider this and instigate conditions that draws are not permitted at certain stages...

It is a complex argument, one covered with great points here over at Susan Polgars blog in part 1 and part 2

I do agree that instigating a no draw rule is better in some cases, but... sometimes a draw is vitally important when money is at stake and a draw guarentees it, while a loss would loose it. 

Big issue is of course arranged draws... which is a real shame. In these cases players can find and play into perp check or 3 move rule. 

Personally in general, i really do not like to play to draw... 

If a game is drawn, sure, ill take it or offer it, some games simply are draws. But to play for a draw... is impo dishounourable. Ive played a big game which was drawable but i couldnt accept simply playing to draw so i made moves which inevitable lost me the game. I still felt better about it that way. Go figure.

Last comment re perp check.. i had a game where i sacrified my queen in the first few moves.. with the plan of probable mate a little down the line..  it ended with my opponent moving into perp check within 10 moves, because he didnt want to risk loosing a major piece as he was a queen up....  way i saw it, he wouldnt have perp checked as he was "winning", but he did.. so i lost the chance to mate. I think it is an interesting addition to the game and should stay. However in tournies i also think it right that a "no draw" or "fighting chess" rules should be employed at least in certain stages. Perhaps not in the final round. Cheers


Michael_Sarmiento
great opinion, i have nothing against perpetual check but it would be nice if no draws during the final round....