Its not the move but the position that needs to be repeated 3 times
The position was repeated 3 times. The positions with black to play on the 32nd, 34th, and 36th are identical
Draws by repetition on this site are not being called correctly
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Since we are talking about draws by repetition, what if the position at 32, 34, and 36 had repeated itself one more time 10 moves before. Would position 34 grant you the opportunity to claim a draw? Or must the repeated position occur 3 times in a row?
Gwystlo wrote:
It has to be three times in a row,
Otherwise a Lot of games could be classed as drawn.
And the reason - i guess - why it asked before you made the 3rd and final repetition move is that it [the computer] knew if you made that move, it was a draw, so why not give you the option now.
I suspect had you made another move that option to draw would have gone.
Sometimes it seems as though players think the rules are locked in a vault on Mars.
http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws
"A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row)"
TadDude wrote:
Gwystlo wrote:
It has to be three times in a row,
Otherwise a Lot of games could be classed as drawn.
And the reason - i guess - why it asked before you made the 3rd and final repetition move is that it [the computer] knew if you made that move, it was a draw, so why not give you the option now.
I suspect had you made another move that option to draw would have gone.
Sometimes it seems as though players think the rules are locked in a vault on Mars.
http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws
"A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row)"
It would be hard to call such draw in an OTB game if both players are patzers and neither player is writing down the game.
Eo____ wrote:
TadDude wrote:
Gwystlo wrote:
It has to be three times in a row,
Otherwise a Lot of games could be classed as drawn.
And the reason - i guess - why it asked before you made the 3rd and final repetition move is that it [the computer] knew if you made that move, it was a draw, so why not give you the option now.
I suspect had you made another move that option to draw would have gone.
Sometimes it seems as though players think the rules are locked in a vault on Mars.
http://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess.html#draws
"A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row)"
It would be hard to call such draw in an OTB game if both players are patzers and neither player is writing down the game.
Not so hard...
Pawn moves and captures change the position in a way that is not revertable.
You know the position can not be the same as several moves ago, if you know someone moved a pawn or captured any piece since that.
Oct 7, 2010
0
#7
Just about impossible, I'd think-- I mean, assuming they can't just agree on a draw anyway, which they could do at any time, there must be one person who doesn't want the draw by repetition. I assume that's one of the purposes of recording moves in tournaments, so TDs can check back to verify positions.
I agree with the OP, but in a different way. The way i see it, just because there is a three repetition on the board, one should still be able to offer a draw, not claim it. For example, I may only want to draw if the opponent wants to draw, so offering a draw (not claiming) should still be allowed if a three move repetition has happend. currently, the offer draw button turns into the claim draw button not allowing this.
I want to play with a king, queen and six rooks in the opening but the rules say I cannot. They do however say I can CLAIM a draw after a three-fold repetition of a position. If you don't want to draw, you'd better push a pawn after the second repetition.
I play in several chess websites and while the "chess systems" on the other websities recognize the 3 repetitions of exact position and gives you an automatic draw, the "chess system" here at chess.com doesn't do that. This means it happens only here at chess.com. I have emailed this problem or "bug" to chess.com support and i have discussed it to support staff on the chat room, but it was "dismissed" as if i didn't know what I was talking about.
Another problem I pointed out was the "chess system" here at chess.com gives a player the "win" although there are insufficient materials to checkmate. Additionally, a player was given the win although there was a perpetual check situation, which is related to the original topic.
By the way, what do you think of the situation below:
This was in the endgame where the players had identical number of materials and either cannot "advance" to a winning position. But the player with the white pieces had at least a three minute time advantage. Is this a draw or the player with the white pieces wins?
I've been in situations like this many times and it's always a win for the player with the time advantage.
What do you think?
tonydal wrote:
Eo____ wrote:
It would be hard to call such draw in an OTB game if both players are patzers and neither player is writing down the game.
Sure (if the claimant is not keeping score, no such claim can be upheld).
If this is the case, then who would care?
DanteBanez_AbraPinoy wrote:
I play in several chess websites and while the "chess systems" on the other websities recognize the 3 repetitions of exact position and gives you an automatic draw, the "chess system" here at chess.com doesn't do that. This means it happens only here at chess.com. I have emailed this problem or "bug" to chess.com support and i have discussed it to support staff on the chat room, but it was "dismissed" as if i didn't know what I was talking about.
...
What do you think?
Thirteen-fold repetition or more is allowed if nobody claims the draw.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6429
2010 Dutch Championships: Bok,B (2430) - Van Wely,L (2653) [B43]
"The many-times Dutch champion kept repeating and his opponent did the same. Afterwards Bok said that he offered van Wely the draw twice, but his opponent simply didn't accept it."
DanteBanez_AbraPinoy wrote:
This was in the endgame where the players had identical number of materials and either cannot "advance" to a winning position. But the player with the white pieces had at least a three minute time advantage. Is this a draw or the player with the white pieces wins?
I guess you mean OTB chess?
The player with the least amount of time, should stop the time, call the tournament leader/judge and claim a draw. The tournament leader can then choose to let the game finish in a draw or let the player who wants to play on try for a win for a limited amount of time. If he doesn't make progress, then the tournament leader will say it's a draw. But if the player with the least amount of time can't handle the pressure and looses a piece or whatever, then of course that playes will loose.
But it's a difficult situation - I have lost drawn positions that way myself. The best thing is just to avoid time trouble all together ;)
Yeah, GMs can repeat a position to screw with each other if one knows the other won't take a draw. There was a game of Ulf Andersson where his opponent repeated the position something like 6 times just to try and get Ulf to take some kind of chance (Andersson is a very... solid, no-risk type of player). It actually got under his skin and Ulf ended up losing.
A draw offer does not ever end a game... I've seen this end tragically for one player who failed to claim a draw based on repetition and went on to lose. The tournament director was watching the whole time by the way.
"Draw?" does not end a game.
Stopping the clock on your time and saying "Draw." can end the game.
nice
Oct 8, 2010
0
#16
orangehonda wrote:
Yeah, GMs can repeat a position to screw with each other if one knows the other won't take a draw. There was a game of Ulf Andersson where his opponent repeated the position something like 6 times just to try and get Ulf to take some kind of chance (Andersson is a very... solid, no-risk type of player). It actually got under his skin and Ulf ended up losing.
A draw offer does not ever end a game... I've seen this end tragically for one player who failed to claim a draw based on repetition and went on to lose. The tournament director was watching the whole time by the way.
"Draw?" does not end a game.
Stopping the clock on your time and saying "Draw." can end the game.
You should be careful doing that though. You should call the arbiter and claim the draw before you make the move. Claiming the draw after you make the move doesn't end the game unless your opponent agrees.
Actually, I'd still like to know why the position has to be repeated 3 times.
Why not after the second time? This would stop all this repeating to save time on the clock nonsense.
I agree, I have had situations where I couldn't claim a draw. But I would offer a draw, and the opponent would accept.
Hi Folks:
Thanks for posting a response.
Actually, I forgot to indicate the purpose of the mentioned position.
In addition to chess.com, I also play in other chess websites one particularly www.gamecolony.com.
At www.gamecolony.com, upon reaching a position the third time, their "chess system" will AUTOMATICALLY declare the game a draw! A player doesn't have to claim a draw.
Here at chess.com, a player has to claim a draw! Problem is: if your opponent knows you're behind on time and refuses the draw offer, you will lose on time, which is not supposed to be.
Another situation where there's a problem with the "chess system" here at chess.com that doesn't happen in other web sites:
Here at chess.com, you will also lose on time, even if there are insufficient materials for a checkmate! I have played countless games here and I have encountered this situation so many times.
Now my questiion: If the other chess websites' "chess system" will AUTOMATICALLY declare a draw to drawn positions, why can't the "chess system" here at chess.com do the same thing?
I have also encountered some problems with the "time clock", especially when playing 1 or 2 minute games.
For example: your opponent's time already down to 7 seconds left and after he moves, the time goes back to 11 seconds and so on and on. The "chess system" does that so many times. Chess.com staff call this "lag time" or bonus time.
Wooh, is there such a thing? It doesn't happen like this on other chess websites!
As I have mentioned already, I have discussed the problems with chess.com staff at the chat room, but I sounded to them as if I am offending chess.com and as if I don't know what I am talking about.
I guess, they're only chess games and they don't really matter. As such, I will just continue on playing here at chess.com despite of these problems or simply play at other chess websites.
I am just one person in thousands of players here at chess.com. I simply don't matter, either!
Jeezoos! stop rattling on about other chess sites. We play to the proper rules on this site, a lot of the others have made their own rules up (e.g. Gameknot: Impossible to repeat a position three times, you MUST vary).
You're here now, suck it up.
p.s. I did consider taking your long post apart (point by point) to show that you really don't know what you are talking about. BUT... what's the point? you've spoken to and dismissed the mods and I'm not inclined to waste time on you. You already know everything.
I was under the impression that draw by repetition could be claimed once the same moves have been repeated 3 times in a row. If you look at the last moves of the game above, you can see that the same moves were never made 3 times: Qg4+ was played twice, Kh1 was played twice, Qf3+ was played twice, Kg1 was played twice. Then how come I was allowed the option to claim a draw by repetition before the third repetition?