endgame I thought I had to be winning(and apparently the computer thought so too)

Sort:
Avatar of erikido23

Couple things.  I can't seem to figure out how to insert text in the game on the "new" system. That is mostly the computer analysis but I entered some moves.   Also am I missing something on my note to move 47 where it says I made a blunder.  Seems I can just ignore the threat to the knight and advance my pawns.

 The qa5 idea proposed by the computer is fascinating.  Obviously I saw qa5 as a square but didn't see any of the other stuff associated with it.  Any comments otherwise are greatly appreciated.  Personally I am (more) interested in the endgame though.  

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi

If you're ahead you want to trade... but only to a point.

It's sort of a contradictory rule... but for example if you're a pawn up it's (usually) better to be in a R+B vs R+N endgame than RvR or NvB. So trading would be a mistake.

Same sort of thing here. Especially the queen trade made me think "that's no good" because the black king had more air around it.

 

So yeah, the R vs N with extra pawn is definitely not a trivial win. I think one of the key lessons here is to have avoided it in the first place by keeping material, but sure, the R vs N endgame is an interesting (and challenging) analysis topic.

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi

err... "avoiding" trades might be a little strong... but maybe think of it is trying to jiu jitsu everything you can out of each of the last few phases. K+2, K+1, then K+0 (K vs K) being the last 3 I guess.

I know you were black this game, but just saying.

Avatar of erikido23

So are you saying I should play 28 rxb5!?  In the game and when I initially started to respond I was thinking it just pins my rook.  But, the queen is defended.  So that would make r-b1 a horrific blunder losing a whole rook because of the in between rxf1 check

 

So maybe that is interesting.  But, it still feels wrong.  White would have time to do something and in the meantime I am not now threatening to win the d pawn (like in the game) which was what gave me the complications/winning chances

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi

Naa, avoiding trades was advice for white, sorry. I like Qxb5 for black.

I just thought it was worth saying because I feel like a lot of people misunderstand this point, and trade when ahead... but their trading gives the opponent drawing chances without them realizing it... just like your opponent did this game.

 

The R vs N endgame is really tough... I don't know what to say except it would require a lot of calculation at the board. After white had 1 pawn left I thought it would be easy (just gang up on it with king and knight while your pawns distract) but looking with an engine I was surprised how many winning chances both sides had.

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi

Interesting how this became a benko-like position.

White's control of b5 is often a square black has to use tactical tricks to overcome.

The line with 18...Qa5 is beyond me, so I feel like more instructive is 16...Qb6 17.a4 Nd7 and now both knights are pinned by both bishops to both rooks tongue.png and you overcome the b5 block (take whichever knight he unpins).

 

Avatar of erikido23
Preggo_Basashi wrote:

Naa, avoiding trades was advice for white, sorry. I like Qxb5 for black.

I just thought it was worth saying because I feel like a lot of people misunderstand this point, and trade when ahead... but their trading gives the opponent drawing chances without them realizing it... just like your opponent did this game.

 

The R vs N endgame is really tough... I don't know what to say except it would require a lot of calculation at the board. After white had 1 pawn left I thought it would be easy (just gang up on it with king and knight while your pawns distract) but looking with an engine I was surprised how many winning chances both sides had.

Oh I see...But, the only real way to do it is qa1 (overprotecting loose f1)or d4 (pinning the knight).  But, after qb2 I think black is getting active.  If white leaves the diagonal then that g3 square is loose and the d5 pawn is also STILL weak.

Avatar of erikido23
Preggo_Basashi wrote:

Interesting how this became a benko-like position.

White's control of b5 is often a square black has to use tactical tricks to overcome.

The line with 18...Qa5 is beyond me, so I feel like more instructive is 16...Qb6 17.a4 Nd7 and now both knights are pinned by both bishops to both rooks  and you overcome the b5 block (take whichever knight he unpins).

 

Too tired to calculate it at the moment without the board.  But, I don't trust it.   After Bxb5 bh6 white is better.  The knight can't go to e5 to block so only 2 moves are nf6 and f6.  If nf6 then if black tries "exchanging" on f1 for f8 then the e7 pawn falls hitting the knight and looks very dangerous.  If f6 is the only move then something is going very wrong for black although maybe it is holding.  No reason to put yourself in a terrible defensive position like that OTB.  Remember opposite color bishop endings may be drawish.  But, opposite color bishop middle games are explosive

Avatar of LucasCapdevilaRoby

the general principle, specially un endgames like that, is to trade pieces but to don't t trade pawns

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi
erikido23 wrote:
Preggo_Basashi wrote:

Interesting how this became a benko-like position.

White's control of b5 is often a square black has to use tactical tricks to overcome.

The line with 18...Qa5 is beyond me, so I feel like more instructive is 16...Qb6 17.a4 Nd7 and now both knights are pinned by both bishops to both rooks  and you overcome the b5 block (take whichever knight he unpins).

 

Too tired to calculate it at the moment without the board.  But, I don't trust it.   After Bxb5 bh6 white is better.  The knight can't go to e5 to block so only 2 moves are nf6 and f6.  If nf6 then if black tries "exchanging" on f1 for f8 then the e7 pawn falls hitting the knight and looks very dangerous.  If f6 is the only move then something is going very wrong for black although maybe it is holding.  No reason to put yourself in a terrible defensive position like that OTB.  Remember opposite color bishop endings may be drawish.  But, opposite color bishop middle games are explosive

f6 looks awful.... but is actually a common (and good) move in the benko (or structures like this).

After Bxb5 Bh6 you're temporarily up a piece, so you can confidently go into the your threats vs my threats thing. f6 BxR BxR and you're still up a piece.

Also I checked this with an engine before posting, so there's no tactical refutation for sure grin.png

Avatar of Michael-Holm

 Interesting. Reminds me of a 960 game I played. I guess I also made the mistake of trading too many pieces. I wasn't able to win either:

 

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi

Eh, that one is harder to decide IMO. I like the queen trade because your king has no cover, and I don't mind the rook trade because, you know, with so few open files the rooks aren't as meaningful.

Just a tough endgame either way I think.

Avatar of Michael-Holm

Yeah maybe I overestimated my chances. My opponent defended well so it was hard to make progress.