Etiquette

It is great that you have attempted to defend your position L8NC, however, there is no rule of ettiquette that requires your opponent to ACCEPT a drw, much less to OFFER you one for any reason at any time.  Youare correct that many people do so, but it seems that you did not bother to offer a draw yourself.  If you did at some earlier point when it seemed logical then great, kudos to you.  If you waited until this point to do so then thats is your problem.  Either way, when neither player has sufficient material for checkmate, THEN it is proper to offer a draw.  Otherwise, making a mistake is the fault of the player who then loses, and whomever that may be, gets to lose. 

I think we could all use a break from the problems with, "My opponent resigned, did'nt resign, told me to resign, kept offering a draw, wouldn't offer a draw," etc.  If the staff, who happen to be quite experienced in the ettiquette and experience of play at many levels (I expect) would put a post in once a week or something about the general thought then we don't need to read and comment on this every time it happens to every person. Heck, I had a question about it myself when my opponent said, "Just resign, c'mon."  Sure I woulda punched him in person but it's the internet so I took the advice given me, turned off chat, and played till he slipped up.

A resignation is also a loss.

 

Like I said, at the position that you posted, I had already lost the game and I knew it. I'm talking about even earlier in the game, where, like I said, the game was even. This is not the first time that you have made me play beyond the point of my desire.

I may take your advice and simply resign when I feel the game has no decisive victory, as since this is only casual gaming, there is no need put our egos at stake with one another. The only thing that will result is a harmed friendship.

 

But I feel like my point has fallen upon deaf ears, since the people replying to this seem to have not much better to do than to flame and insult me with little useful input to the thread.

 

EDIT: I thank you, dvwork, for your rational reply to this topic. I did not wait until now to draw, I did so much earlier, but he refused, and thus the game was played until this point.

Again I never forced you to "play beyond the point of my desire". You made the moves that put you in that position. And you never offered me a draw this game. Even so why would I draw a game I could win?

And don't blame the people posting here, it is obvious you made a mistake and you paid for it, all it means is that you won't make the same mistake again. And the game was  not even, I had the strategy, you put yourself in the position.

Think about you input in the situation, your not innocent, you made the remarks out of anger, and called me on my etiquette, I challenged it, now you don't know what to do.

And I never make you play, you can resign or offer draw, sometimes I accept.  

I can in some way understand your opponent. If I'm in a game which is going to be a draw, unless one or the other makes a silly move, then I am quite happy to offer, or accept a draw, and then move on to another game. But he shouldn't be quoting some imaginary rule!!

Remember there is always another game around the corner :)

 

 

I would be slightly annoyed if someone continued to play when it was clearly a draw but its there right and nothing to go complaining about just play the game to the finish at the best of your ability.

really, is this such a big deal?

I tried to find a GM named Jack Cashman and couldn't, couldnt even find a Jack Cashman that has a fide rating, weird eh?  In this game in question did anyone offer a draw and was refused? I once had an ending of r+p v r and the position was a "book draw" , my 1900 opponent tried to claim the draw and called the arbiter over, the arbiter insisted he continue the game while he looked on, as it turns out my opponent "knew" it was a book draw (with correct play) but he didnt have the knowledge necessary to draw the game and actually lost a drawn position. I have been on the losing side of such "book draws" with IMs and GMs, this happens often and to all chess players. Its not always easy to draw a "drawn position" with the pressure of the clock and faced with a strong opponent, especially a stronger opponent. k+r v k+r is a "book draw" but either player can mess it up and lose, this is especially true at lower levels so if your opponent doesnt want a draw you simply must play on, theres no other choice unless an arbiter stops the game and rules it a draw.

Do what you think is best for you, then commiserate with him on losing the game - that's etiquette!

   In My thinking.. first I find YES E.Atoum you are right! Truly you had better position though having same pieces and I draw does not count there! But again I find it a bit not okay (I can be wrong) posting a game I won with an opponents name on it! If I were L8NC I would be sad.Just Nameless/or Hidden will do good! We all make mistakes! chess.com I believe is here to join people around the world together to enjoy the beauty of Chess. Lets put it that way!

     My the ancient war be on Pieces on board only!

 

 L8NC, you are totally and completely erroneous in your stated position.

 

I've been a TD for over 25 years now, have worked quite a few tournaments - often as many as 240 players, and have yet to see any "rule" you cite (or policy, if you prefer) stating it is rude to insist your opponent prove that they know how to achieve a draw (or prove the win).

 

 from your earlier post:  quote:

"   Earlier in the game, when the pieces were in a more even position, it would've been anyone's game, but since, admittedly, I had forgotten the Rook-King mating pattern during this match, I played the next moves out incorrectly, allowing my king to be forced into a rook-pin, and losing the game honestly. ...      ....  it is easy to perceive me as being "whining", or "annoyed", or "full of it", or whatever the people here said about me. I admit to my mistake in play which, consequently cost me the game. It saddens me that I am now antagonized after the question of ettiquite was asked out of context.

   ...

My point at the time of the game was that it is impolite to force a player to play on in a game which is clearly even in material and position (NOT the one he posted above) and would only end in a stalemate regardless unless one of the players makes a mistake."   end quote

Some chess for you to consider:

 1.     if, as you allege - at an earlier point in the game, it "could have been anyone's game" asking for a draw is one technique to get one's opponent to 'overreach' and - after declining the draw, ego enters into the game and the opponent will push too hard or too fast to win, thereby losing.  all a valid technique to win the game.   if you doubt this:  read  Chess for Tigers by Simon Webb - he even has a chapter on the timing of the 'draw offer in an unclear position to stimulate your opponent to err."   << paraphrased title - that isn't quite what he called it, but that conveys the message.

 

2.  it would be 'impolite' to continue to play on, in the diagram you posted, where the only way one could lose would be to separate king and rook by more than two ranks or files, and then line them up for a skewer attack.

 

3.  Regardless of number 2 above, since -- as you state -- neither of you recorded moves,  PROVING your claim - that the position would repeat - is not possible - since no one wrote down the moves .... he is entitled to move on and hope you blunder.  [that you did blunder by failing to remember the technique involved, is merely proof of his proper behavior.]

 

4. rather than lose your friendship with him, continue, but purchase one or another good endgames books and STUDY through it, resolving NEVER to lose again to him for a simple ending that most beginners learn to deal with (if their chess coach does right for them).   All the kids I coach start out by learning the Philidor and Lucena positions - as the majority of all rook and pawn struggles can be regarded to be "encapsulated" in one form or another in those two essential positions.

      Had you understood those principles, and proper transitioning into the drawing position, you NEVER would lose when the game goes down to rook +king vs rook +king.

  remember;  about 20% of games are won in the opening, 20% in the middlegame, and THE REST in the Ending.   so, what should you study most?????

 

Eternal_Autumn did exactly the right thing to win the game. 

 

  Ego is involved, or you would not have had bitter words for him - stimulating him to initiate this forum.

 

Instead of whining further and pouting publicly, get your axx in gear, BUY and endgame book and spend 30 minutes a day studying so he NEVER can wax you this way again.    Mueller and Lamprecht have a great book available - Fundamental Chess Endings - which, although a little pricey, at $30, is still good reading and not boring at all.    there are many other good endgame books available as well.   Study rook endings as rooks plus pawns are involved in over 15% of all endgames at the GM level.  (presumably, also in lesser rated players' endings).

 

  AND LAST:   resign in unclear positions if you want to, but don't whine about your intent to do that here like some little child who lost their toy. 

 we don't care.   and that is why you aren't getting any sympathy.

 

  now:  grow up a little, and go do the right thing.     buy an endgame book and study it so you don't lose a drawn position, and consider;    by presenting the STRONGEST possible play in a theoretically drawn but still a little unclear position, you may win some of those drawn position games.....  if the position isn't clearly drawn   ....    

 

      Eternal_Autumn apparently uses that philosophy of chess with his friends....

 

check prices at www.WHOLESALECHESS.COM       (and no, erik doesn't give me a discount for the plug.  --- but I can hope..)

Much ado about nothing.

So was there a draw offered before the final position?

A draw can be offered by either player.  Personally, I like to play it through a bit longer, before offering a draw, for two reasons.

1. Perhaps I can maneuver my opponent into a mistake.

2. I like to learn by seeing how others play out their end game.

The only way to learn is playing the game through and learning how your opponent moves, and his strategy. Resigning because you think it's 'etiquette' to do so will teach you nothing.