It is something humans learned from AlphaZero.
Have lines including h4 been on the rise since AlphaZero or was it a rising trend before?
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Sep 3, 2021
0
#3
Really?
Pretty sure Chessmaster was doing h4 or a4 20 years ago when I played.
It is cool to see h4 being played against the KID.
#3
Really!
h4 used to be played, but much later than now
See Maxime Vachier-Lagrave vs. Peter Svidler, Sinquefield Cup 2021: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 h4
This would have been frowned upon 20 years ago.
Sep 4, 2021
0
#5
tygxc wrote:
#3
Really!
h4 used to be played, but much later than now
See Maxime Vachier-Lagrave vs. Peter Svidler, Sinquefield Cup 2021: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 h4
This would have been frowned upon 20 years ago.
I started with learning classical chess and still apply it to this day after taking the up the game again.
I use to get frustrated back then when I tried to expand with a6, b5 ideas in the Sicilian and an experienced opponent would just shut it down with a4; that was considered theory.
If you run out of moves, a4 or h4 lol and limit the counter play on the edges of the board.
In the Yugoslav attack, you have ideas of pushing the pawns up on the g and h files.
In the English Opening, it’s acceptable to kick the opponents bishop away with h3 followed by g4. Pawn structure looks ugly but it works and the king is safe oddly enough.
#5
In the Yugoslav Attack h4 is played on move 12, after all pieces are developed and after black has castled 7...O-O. An early h4 as on move 3 is clearly learned from AlphaZero.
Sep 4, 2021
0
#7
tygxc wrote:
#5
In the Yugoslav Attack h4 is played on move 12, after all pieces are developed and after black has castled 7...O-O. An early h4 as on move 3 is clearly learned from AlphaZero.
We know engines like to limit counter play and take spatial advantages, it’s not a new a idea.
Sep 4, 2021
0
#8
Oh, you meant in the opening. Similar ideas still apply like they do in the middle game, white controls the g5 square, provides a post for knight, takes away g6 from black unless he is bold to fianchetto his bishop (scary because h5 is ready to meet) and lastly, a rook lift possibility.
Can black therefore prove h4 was a wasted tempo thereby playing an opening where h4 does not come to play?
#8
h4 to punish the weakening by ...g6 is well known, but not as early as move 3
Here is another example where 7 h4 is clearly borrowed from AphaZero
https://en.chessbase.com/post/candidates-2020-r7
perhaps...the following openings:
King's Indian: Six pawns attack
King's Gambit Accepted: Kieseritsky, Brentano defence, Caro variation
King's Gambit Accepted: Kieseritsky, Salvio defence, Cozio variation
involve h4 in their lines and they are unpopular openings. top masters play h4 to confuse their opponents because h4 is irregular during opening. while they actually already memorized the ideal lines..
Sep 4, 2021
0
#11
Mainly because of Leela because everyone has access to it.
Some of these ideas already existed before (for example Topalov played 3. h4 against Giri in 2016) but now that it's also backed up by modern engines, they became much more popular.
No. Lines involving the h-pawn going down the board have always been part of chess strategy.
pfren wrote:
No. Lines involving the h-pawn going down the board have always been part of chess strategy.
h4 against the fianchettoed bishop makes sense in openings such as the dragon or pirc, but how about openings where it's clasically not seen as strong like in the grünfeld?
For example in the Fedoseev vs Carlsen game https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2069037 & though it's not the first time it's been played, someone has talked about it above that this would have been frowned upon 20 years ago. So clearly not a normal approach to the game
Garudapura wrote:
pfren wrote:
No. Lines involving the h-pawn going down the board have always been part of chess strategy.
h4 against the fianchettoed bishop makes sense in openings such as the dragon or pirc, but how about openings where it's clasically not seen as strong like in the grünfeld?
For example in the Fedoseev vs Carlsen game https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2069037 & though it's not the first time it's been played, someone has talked about it above that this would have been frowned upon 20 years ago. So clearly not a normal approach to the game
You may question the timing of the move, but the move positionally makes sense.
GingerGM has played at least 10 games with 3.h4 before AlphaZeros and engines were used in chess analysis, and the same applies for other titled players.
pfren wrote:
Garudapura wrote:
pfren wrote:
No. Lines involving the h-pawn going down the board have always been part of chess strategy.
h4 against the fianchettoed bishop makes sense in openings such as the dragon or pirc, but how about openings where it's clasically not seen as strong like in the grünfeld?
For example in the Fedoseev vs Carlsen game https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2069037 & though it's not the first time it's been played, someone has talked about it above that this would have been frowned upon 20 years ago. So clearly not a normal approach to the game
You may question the timing of the move, but the move positionally makes sense.
GingerGM has played at least 10 games with 3.h4 before AlphaZeros and engines were used in chess analysis, and the same applies for other titled players.
That is true, though GingerGM's approach to chess is far from the usual GM's
I've been following & playing serious chess since 2017, and I obviously wasn't good enough to remember opening trends played before and after December 2017 (AlphaZero debut) back then.
So I just wanna ask if including h4 in many openings is a direct result of AlphaZero's influence? or was it on the rise from before in top level play?