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How can I mate with two knights and my king?

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dlb81

White (me): two knights, King

Black: King

It is known that an extra piece is required to be able to mate Black.

What if there are no extra pieces, but we modify the board by adding an "extra square" below e1?

Is it possible to mate now? How?

Ziryab

Your opponent must be willing.

dlb81

Can we force white king into this position by white giving check with last move? If yes, then it seems Ke0,
Nhg1/f2  mates

Oh I see. On normal board it is already checkmate, so this is not an achievable position if white plays well. Therefore there will be no  mate on E0 square either.

MARattigan
dlb81 wrote:

Can we force white king into this position by white giving check with last move? If yes, then it seems Ke0,
Nhg1/f2  mates

Oh I see. On normal board it is already checkmate, so this is not an achievable position if white plays well. Therefore there will be no  mate on E0 square either.

Not true. With a square at e0 any of White's lines below are best play and mate is forced from a KKNN position in the main line (moves 2 and 3).

 

dlb81

What is that queen?grin.png

MARattigan
dlb81 wrote:

What is that queen?

Click forward twice and ask again. All legal mates have a black queen at some stage (but admittedly not many finish up with the white king on e0).

If you really don't like the black queen try 

1...Kd2 2.Ke0 Nf5 3.Kf1 Ne3+ 4.Ke0 Ng1#

dlb81

This one is better!

drmrboss

Statistics says, out of 3,100,000 possible positions, 

184 positions are won by KNN vs K.

Some won positions are




Lord_Hammer

You cannot force a mate with two knights but a mate is possible. These are help mates. But chess.com doesn’t factor in helpmates, so if you have 2 knights, it will be a draw. 

MARattigan
drmrboss wrote:

Statistics says, out of 3,100,000 possible positions, 

184 positions are won by KNN vs K.

Some won positions are

But most EGTBs don't take account of the e0 square.

MARattigan
Lord_Hammer wrote:

You cannot force a mate with two knights but a mate is possible. These are help mates. But chess.com doesn’t factor in helpmates, so if you have 2 knights, it will be a draw. 

 A  bit inaccurate even if you omit OP's e0 square.

In the position shown here White has 2 knights but it's neither a draw nor a helpmate.

and this is a helpmate which chess.com appears to "factor in" (if that means awarding the point).

In both final positions White has two knights but it's not a draw. And neither is this

White to play and win

not to mention this

White to play and not win

 

hisokaxhunter

can be done if the black king goes the edge of the corner maybe h8 or a8 and u need one Knight with king only

Ziryab
MARattigan wrote:
drmrboss wrote:

Statistics says, out of 3,100,000 possible positions, 

184 positions are won by KNN vs K.

Some won positions are

But most EGTBs don't take account of the e0 square.

 

Precisely.

MARattigan
hisokaxhunter wrote:

can be done if the black king goes the edge of the corner maybe h8 or a8 and u need one Knight with king only

Only in that case if Black has at least one other piece because the white king can't attack both squares adjacent to the corner. This is possible (but not forcible)

 

or this which is forcible

There are more possibilities  with the king on a1 or h1, e.g. White can force a win in this Mendheim study:

White to play and win

 

Capabotvikhine
dlb81 wrote:

White (me): two knights, King

Black: King

 

It is known that an extra piece is required to be able to mate Black.

What if there are no extra pieces, but we modify the board by adding an "extra square" below e1?

Is it possible to mate now? How?

Why waste a thread on this? There are articles and chess endgame books that cover this thoroughly.

MARattigan
Morphys-Revenge wrote:
dlb81 wrote:

White (me): two knights, King

Black: King

 

It is known that an extra piece is required to be able to mate Black.

What if there are no extra pieces, but we modify the board by adding an "extra square" below e1?

Is it possible to mate now? How?

Why waste a thread on this? There are articles and chess endgame books that cover this thoroughly.

Can you name one that covers the ending with an extra square at e0 (the topic)?

MARattigan
drmrboss wrote:

Statistics says, out of 3,100,000 possible positions, 

184 positions are won by KNN vs K.

 


But if you work it out yourself on the back of an envelope you should find that on a standard board alone there are 736 positions won by KNN vs K (616 if you exclude positions that are already mate).

There are lies, damn lies etc.

 

drmrboss
MARattigan wrote:
drmrboss wrote:

Statistics says, out of 3,100,000 possible positions, 

184 positions are won by KNN vs K.

 


But if you work it out yourself on the back of an envelope you should find that on a standard board alone there are 736 positions won by KNN vs K (616 if you exclude positions that are already mate).

There are lies, damn lies etc.

 

Statistics never lies. Wrong statistics are due to wrong observer. How did you get 736? I saw 184 on syzgy.

Togishere
MARattigan wrote:
Lord_Hammer wrote:

You cannot force a mate with two knights but a mate is possible. These are help mates. But chess.com doesn’t factor in helpmates, so if you have 2 knights, it will be a draw. 

 A  bit inaccurate even if you omit OP's e0 square.

In the position shown here White has 2 knights but it's neither a draw nor a helpmate.

 

and this is a helpmate which chess.com appears to "factor in" (if that means awarding the point).

 

In both final positions White has two knights but it's not a draw. And neither is this

White to play and win

not to mention this

White to play and not win

 

That position is impossible though, think about it, before this position, on black's move, what could he have played? Nothing.

QuantumYankee

The only way to checkmate someone with two knights is if 
A. They are new and don't know how to defend
B. They let you
Otherwise against best defense two knights can not defeat a lone king