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DiogenesDue
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

I say this because God's plans for everyone are different. In the book of Job, Job's children. livestock, and all of his possessions were taken away. Satan took these as a spiritual test. After that, Satan gave him painful skin sores. Job was very faitthful and remained faithful, despite what he had gone through and what his friends told him. His wife said: "Curse God and die!", but he told her that she sounded like a fool. (God gave Job a spiritual test.) A lot of homeless or poor people do not believe, so they may not have set themselves up for success in this life, or they were confused during their childhood about what they wanted to do with their lives. It is up to people who care not to only help them financially, and mentally, but spiritually. We are all related, and we are all equal one way or another.

Swap the two test givers and your re-distributed narrative does not change in any meaningful way. Something to ponder.

DiogenesDue
llama_l wrote:

For example Exodus 12:12 seems to say that Egyptian Gods actually do exist, and Yahweh is going to beat them up

It's a slightly more boring version of Thanos vs. The Avengers...

DiogenesDue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

DiogenesDue
llama_l wrote:

What's fun is I still like those stories

If derivative art weren't interesting, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything, so thank goodness.

But yeah, on the topic of religion, the more educated a person is, the more they realize it's something humans made up... this isn't to say spirituality or the supernatural definitely don't exist, just that the traditions and doctrines and power structures that crop up around them are man made, and obviously so.

Who wouldn't? I read every mythology book I could growing up. The key is recognizing that one's own modern day mythology is just that...a mythology that will one day be superseded by scientific advancement exactly the same way as every other mythology before it.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

Personally, I would like to die of old age because it would feel more peaceful. Dying slowly of suffocation freaks me out for example. The sense of peace as you feel Jesus’s presence is worth it though.

I am young.

Yeah, I can tell you're young... for starters, dying of old age is not peaceful. It's the slowest way to die. You slowly fall apart over decades. Not only do you slowly lose yourself mentally and physically, but all your friends die, all your family dies, even your culture dies. As you get older, and watch others age, you realize this. "Getting old isn't for the faint of heart."

I mostly meant dying in your sleep. Dying in this way makes you do a lot of thinking about your life. Eventually you come to peace with God and yourself.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

Don't mind me. I'm just imagining this kid choking himself and as he passes out, thinking "ah yes, the sweet warmth of Jesus."

lol

(There's a way to choke yourself and pass out without dying, and some kids do it as a fad, which is dangerous, so don't do that)

But yeah, it made me laugh.

I have not heard of that trend; who thinks of those anyway? They do not think about Jesus when they are choking obviously, because their adrenaline is rampaging. Right at the end of their death, all of their futile pains fade away.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

I say this because God's plans for everyone are different. In the book of Job, Job's children. livestock, and all of his possessions were taken away. Satan took these as a spiritual test. After that, Satan gave him painful skin sores. Job was very faitthful and remained faithful, despite what he had gone through and what his friends told him. His wife said: "Curse God and die!", but he told her that she sounded like a fool. (God gave Job a spiritual test.) A lot of homeless or poor people do not believe, so they may not have set themselves up for success in this life, or they were confused during their childhood about what they wanted to do with their lives. It is up to people who care not to only help them financially, and mentally, but spiritually. We are all related, and we are all equal one way or another.

Swap the two test givers and your re-distributed narrative does not change in any meaningful way. Something to ponder.

Yeah, this type of examination leads to a lot of interesting conclusions...

Change the names of the characters and tell the same story... who is the bad guy? In the Old Testament it's usually God who is doing evil... but in the bronze age the way you made your God stand out among other Gods was the power to destroy.

There are various places where the Bible mentions Yahweh is stronger than the other Gods, and specifically the Egyptian gods.

For example Exodus 12:12 seems to say that Egyptian Gods actually do exist, and Yahweh is going to beat them up

In the Old Testament, God was younger, so he punished people differently. His own creation had been an experiment that had gone on on weird tangents that could only be fized with harsh punishments (Noah's story). In the story of Job, God only let Satan do what he did (within bounds) because he trusted Job to maintain his faith. In Exodus, I think their main point with mentioning "other Gods" was that God should be placed above all of your idols, like the golden calf made when Moses was talking to God.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:

I suppose one way the world is changing...

I've told the story before, that when I was new to chess, a guy at the chess club lent me a VHS tape of a GM giving some beginner-level instruction. And it was an hour long! I was really grateful for that. These days you have access to seemingly endless hours of GM commentary.

Similarly, when I was a kid, when your family and friends believe in religion, you have no reason to question that. These days kids can come online and discover that many different ideas exist, and that, how to put it, "reasonable people will disagree."

If you want your kid to stay religious you really shouldn't let them post online heh. Mythology can only survive as truth in the vacuum of ideas and education, to be blunt.

This is why I like to speak to all kinds of people: so I broaden my horizons about how people think. You mentioned that you discontinued your faith because of epistomology. Can you elaborate more about what your relgious advisors told you and how they answered your arguments?

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

Eventually you come to peace with God and yourself.

I mean, yeah, if we're talking about a character in a screenplay, that's probably how it would happen. They would be scared at first, and then accept it, fade to black, roll credits.

No, I know this from experience. My grandmother died a slow death because of her heart. She was terrified of dying at first, but then she came to accept it. It was very hard for her, not being able to do anything, but she was close to God.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:
llama_l wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

I say this because God's plans for everyone are different. In the book of Job, Job's children. livestock, and all of his possessions were taken away. Satan took these as a spiritual test. After that, Satan gave him painful skin sores. Job was very faitthful and remained faithful, despite what he had gone through and what his friends told him. His wife said: "Curse God and die!", but he told her that she sounded like a fool. (God gave Job a spiritual test.) A lot of homeless or poor people do not believe, so they may not have set themselves up for success in this life, or they were confused during their childhood about what they wanted to do with their lives. It is up to people who care not to only help them financially, and mentally, but spiritually. We are all related, and we are all equal one way or another.

Swap the two test givers and your re-distributed narrative does not change in any meaningful way. Something to ponder.

Yeah, this type of examination leads to a lot of interesting conclusions...

Change the names of the characters and tell the same story... who is the bad guy? In the Old Testament it's usually God who is doing evil... but in the bronze age the way you made your God stand out among other Gods was the power to destroy.

There are various places where the Bible mentions Yahweh is stronger than the other Gods, and specifically the Egyptian gods.

For example Exodus 12:12 seems to say that Egyptian Gods actually do exist, and Yahweh is going to beat them up

In the Old Testament, God was younger, so he punished people differently. His own creation had been an experiment that had gone on on weird tangents that could only be fized with harsh punishments (Noah's story). In the story of Job, God only let Satan do what he did (within bounds) because he trusted Job to maintain his faith. In Exodus, I think their main point with mentioning "other Gods" was that God should be placed above all of your idols, like the golden calf made when Moses was talking to God.

Sure, a modern interpretation is that they were only idols. When it was written though Yahweh was only a regional god and so it was important that he flexed on other regional gods.

Your characterization of him as being young and naive fits pretty well with how he was written in the Old Testament (God wasn't all knowing or all powerful in those stories). For example when God "comes down to see what's going on" ... the character of Yahweh is written in a way that he's beyond human, but not omniscient, all powerful etc.

Exactly. This confuses our definition of "perfect", doesn't it? God is now all knowng, so he does not intervene directly. The other Gods never seemed to make any appearance in people's lives except for in their minds.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:
llama_l wrote:

I suppose one way the world is changing...

I've told the story before, that when I was new to chess, a guy at the chess club lent me a VHS tape of a GM giving some beginner-level instruction. And it was an hour long! I was really grateful for that. These days you have access to seemingly endless hours of GM commentary.

Similarly, when I was a kid, when your family and friends believe in religion, you have no reason to question that. These days kids can come online and discover that many different ideas exist, and that, how to put it, "reasonable people will disagree."

If you want your kid to stay religious you really shouldn't let them post online heh. Mythology can only survive as truth in the vacuum of ideas and education, to be blunt.

This is why I like to speak to all kinds of people: so I broaden my horizons about how people think. You mentioned that you discontinued your faith because of epistomology. Can you elaborate more about what your relgious advisors told you and how they answered your arguments?

Sure, that's a good question.

It always boiled down to "I acknowledge that the points you're brining up are reasonable, but I choose to see it this way [insert how they see it] and I choose to keep my faith"

For example when pointing out a place in the Bible where there is a seeming contradiction, uneducated religious folk would pretend it doesn't exist, but the educated ones would say "yeah, but I choose believe that God is multifaceted and beyond human understanding. Even though there seem to be contradictions, this is how God is revealing his Truth to us. It's important to mediate on this scripture to find those truths. This is what I choose to believe."

Similarly when pointing out how Christianity looks exactly like a man made religion (when considering the history) they would say "yes, what you say is true, but I believe this is how God has chosen to communicate to us."

That's how those interactions went, which from my point of view was respectable, but wasn't enough for me, so I didn't believe anymore.

What led you to start asking if any of it was real in the first place? I agree with what your advisors said for the most part, but I mostly think that God keeps us in the dark about specific details so can draw our own conclusions, which might make us closer to Him. We all try to read the Bible are carefully as we can, and learn what we do from it, but we each grow with our own paths next to God.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

What led you to start asking if any of it was real in the first place?

Since a young age, I've liked abstract ideas. I used to write my own philosophy stuff... and it was as bad and silly as you'd imagine from any 14 year old lol

But yeah, I enjoy thinking about things. Eventually I started thinking about religion and spirituality. One thing that sparked it was education and not living with my parents anymore. As an elective I took a philosophy class and also a history of religion class.

One of the religious people I talked to was a nun who played chess haha

But she really didn't like chess, she much preferred playing cards, which was annoying to me heh. But I visited her a few times. Like I said, people who'd gone to seminary school (whatever their religion or denomination) gave me answers that impressed me.

-

Of course this was all very much a hobby... I should be careful to point out I haven't studied any of this in depth. It was just something I was interested in for a brief time as a young adult.

The answers I got weren't good enough, so I stopped believing. It was emotionally uncomfortable at first, but intellectually honest. That's how I'd describe it.

I admire that you are an intellectual who is interested in philosophy and religion, because things like that seem so natural. As you know, it is uncommon for people to think for themselves when they are younger, so they get into a fixed mindset. Then SURPRISE! Eventually your freedom requires you to explain honest how you feel about things in detail. Since your transition into athesism was uncomfortable emotionally, did you lose any happiness? What makes you happy in this life that you feel like it defines you? I personally take comfort in knowing that God is keeping me from doing anyhting too destructive, and that my every mistake is controlled so that it helps me grow. Part of the happiness with walking with God is that you are doing it with other people. Our mission in life is to prosper and help our brothers and sisters prosper. Without that similar relation, how can you feel close to other people?

LightningStorm_07

Humans to feel close to each other at first, but no one is that close to each other anymore outside of families. In modern times, kids just flex on each other about their physical strength and their grades. Of course we want social interactions, so we talk to them, but no one is really helping each other by doing this. No one seems to be vulnerable with each other. If you see a kid fall and hurt themselves, you feel bad for them, but did you help them?

RemovedUsername-24020301

HELP NEEDED! A user by the name of @mikemoraes alleges that he can hear ultrasonic frequencies, and that they are being used as a method of torture and control in his home country. I don't know much of the situation so if you have any information or a way to possibly help on a small scale or contribute on a large scale, talk to @mikemoraes. Whether his claims are true or false, the risk of them being true is too great to ignore. There is public knowledge of some people being able to hear ultrasonic frequencies, and some studies on how acoustics are used for such means as stated above, among other things: https://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/eprint/6092/1/543845.pdf

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

If you see a kid fall and hurt themselves, you feel bad for them, but did you help them?

lol, I actually have a story about this.

I saw this, maybe 4 year old? Sitting in the middle of a crowd. No one was within 10 feet of him. He was crying. Apparently separated from his parent somehow.

Instinctually of course I'd want to go over to him, but socially I have to realize, I'm a male adult, and that's not acceptable. A female adult could go help him, but if I get there 5 seconds before the parent that could be bad. So I just sat there and watched. If something bad happened I'd help, but he was just crying. Eventually a parent came and picked him up.

I think of the story in terms of gender inequality. It was hurtful to sit there and watch a kid cry, but because I'm male I felt like I wasn't allowed to help.

Ah, it things like that where humans got socially off track. Don't get me wrong, you were right not to just walk up to someone's baby, that would seem weird. It is the reason why you weren't able to help the kid that is sad.

LightningStorm_07
llama_l wrote:
GM_LightningStorm wrote:

Humans to feel close to each other at first, but no one is that close to each other anymore outside of families. In modern times, kids just flex on each other about their physical strength and their grades. Of course we want social interactions, so we talk to them, but no one is really helping each other by doing this. No one seems to be vulnerable with each other.

You seem like a pretty mature kid. If that's due to religion then that's pretty cool, good for you.

Thank you, I would say that I have matured with thanks to my church and my general education.