Insufficient Material my opponent had a queen and a knight!!

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Avatar of Warrior_Spirit

I just had a king and he had a kinght and a queen! How is that insufficient material?

Avatar of goldendog

He ran out of time and you had insufficient material to mate, so draw. Right?

Avatar of BEENER
goldendog wrote:

He ran out of time and you had insufficient material to mate, so draw. Right?


Yes

Avatar of Warrior_Spirit

oh, I didn't know that was how it works lol!! Shouldnt have traded off my pieces then.

Avatar of Warrior_Spirit

Its possible to get mated with a knight and a king?

Avatar of rooperi

Warrior_Spirit wrote:

Its possible to get mated with a knight and a king?


Avatar of fredschwan

The statement that sufficient mating material includes a lone knight or bishop may be correct at chess.com, but it is NOT correct for USCF (and FIDA) OTB tournaments. Either of those alone vs a king or king and knight or bishop is a draw. I believe that this is the appropriate solution in addition to being the rule. Knowing this means that it is important to simplify correctly.

Avatar of rrrttt

If black runs out of time in this position

Avatar of Scarblac

And with a bishop each, it depends on their colours:

Avatar of Scarblac
fredschwan wrote:

The statement that sufficient mating material includes a lone knight or bishop may be correct at chess.com, but it is NOT correct for USCF (and FIDA) OTB tournaments. Either of those alone vs a king or king and knight or bishop is a draw. I believe that this is the appropriate solution in addition to being the rule. Knowing this means that it is important to simplify correctly.


 It's exactly the same here as in FIDE. King+Knight vs King is an immediate draw, but King+Knight vs King+Bishop isn't, as mate is still possible.

I bet it's the same for USCF rules. Otherwise the game would be declared drawn right before one side could give mate, or it would be a good strategy to let your clock run out in some positions. I don't think so.

It's only a draw if mate isn't possible.

Avatar of Dragec
fredschwan wrote:

The statement that sufficient mating material includes a lone knight or bishop may be correct at chess.com, but it is NOT correct for USCF (and FIDA) OTB tournaments. Either of those alone vs a king or king and knight or bishop is a draw. I believe that this is the appropriate solution in addition to being the rule. Knowing this means that it is important to simplify correctly.


 I am sorry but this is not correct, at least not at this moment. Game is draw if checkmate cannot occur by any sequence of legal moves. (Article 9.6. Fide rules of chess). Please see the famous ruling from 2008, Monika Socko won the K+N vs K+N game on time and event though initially arbiter ruled it to be a draw, later on the win was appointed to Socko: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monika_Socko

I don't say it is a good rule, indeed I think it needs to be changed to disallow such kind of wins, but this is the current situation.

Avatar of fredschwan
Estragon wrote:
fredschwan wrote:

The statement that sufficient mating material includes a lone knight or bishop may be correct at chess.com, but it is NOT correct for USCF (and FIDA) OTB tournaments. Either of those alone vs a king or king and knight or bishop is a draw. I believe that this is the appropriate solution in addition to being the rule. Knowing this means that it is important to simplify correctly.


 The King ALONE vs. K+ N or B is a draw, but it is a win if both sides have a piece - one a Knight, and one a Bishop - and one side oversteps the time limit.  If a mate is possible with worst play, you lose when you exceed the limit, period.


Avatar of fredschwan

In one of the response to my comment on sufficient matting material, someone said that while K vs K and B or N is a draw, that K + B/N vs K +B/N is not a draw and that the person who runs out of time loses is not (I am quite sure) correct. Even in the K vs K + N/B there is a small exception about unless mate is immediately available because of the unusual (amazing) position, it is a draw. The rule is insufficient matting material. I believe that this means insufficient to FORCE a mate. I am sorry that I do not have a rule book here. If I get more response, I will dig out a rule book.

Avatar of Izorshtrich

guys, there's a glitch in the program, it happend at least 5 times to me in the past week. My opponent runs out of time, I have enough pices to mate him, but i get "draw insufficient material" message. Pretty frustrating I tell you..... especially if your opponent has high rating.......

Avatar of Loomis

Izor, why don't you give a link to the game(s) where you think the glitch occured? If you don't, it's not possible for the staff to fix the problem.

Avatar of fredschwan

Wait a second here. My take on it is, if I have a bunch of pieces and pawns, but my time runs out, it is a draw if my opponent does not have sufficient mating material. It does not matter what I have when my time runs out. It depends only on what my opponent has.

Avatar of Nixda

from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess#Timing

(The USCF rule is different. USCF Rule 14E defines "insufficient material to win on time", that is lone king, king plus knight, king plus bishop, and king plus two knights opposed by no pawns, and there is no forced win in the final position. Hence to win on time with this material, the USCF rule requires that a win can be forced from that position, while the FIDE rule merely requires a win to be possible.) (See Monika Soćko#Rules appeal in 2008 and Women's World Chess Championship 2008 for a famous instance of this rule.)