I don't agree that the format made anything disgusting to watch or toxic.
It was a good match. It went on for three hours. They played a lot of entertaining chess.
Hikaru won fairly.
I don't agree that the format made anything disgusting to watch or toxic.
It was a good match. It went on for three hours. They played a lot of entertaining chess.
Hikaru won fairly.
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
When I use to do MMA, they have something call “wall and stall” and “lay and prey”, it was unsportsmanlike and unentertaining so the referee would break it up.
Those fighters don’t get invited back and are out of a job.
Sure, it is strategy.
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws.
I agree.
Clock management is part of most games.
Watch American Football, for example, and look specifically at the fourth quarter. When one team is ahead, on offense, they'll often milk the clock with consecutive running plays (to keep the clock ticking). When one team is behind, on offense, they'll try to pass near the sidelines so the receivers can run out of bounds (to stop the clock).
Basketball? The team with the lead will begin milking the shot clock. Sometimes this means the point guard dribbles the ball and runs around in actual circles, to burn as much clock as possible.
You need to use the clock the best you can, depending on where you stand in the match. This means ending games quickly, if you're behind. It means stretching games out, if you're ahead. If you don't, then you're showing a lack of experience ...
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
I am confused about this now. Why do we have report button for stalling then? I understand, stalling purposely is different from using it as a strategy to win the game. When you call it's an unsportsmanlike trait in the first case , how can the Same behaviour become a strategy in the other case! I just don't believe it can be both at the same time. I don't call it dirty though, it doesn't look good at all at such high level chess although it's perfectly OK to do that.
If you sum up the total no. of seconds of Hikaru's stalling time yesterday, it's almost 2 minutes (May be even More) which could have been really decisive. I don't know, I am on neither sides here, but I believe a true gentleman will always remain a gentleman irrespective of the circumstances. Anyways, congratulations to Hikaru!
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws.
I agree.
Clock management is part of most games.
Watch American Football, for example, and look specifically at the fourth quarter. When one team is ahead, on offense, they'll often milk the clock with consecutive running plays (to keep the clock ticking). When one team is behind, on offense, they'll try to pass near the sidelines so the receivers can run out of bounds (to stop the clock).
Basketball? The team with the lead will begin milking the shot clock. Sometimes this means the point guard dribbles the ball and runs around in actual circles, to burn as much clock as possible.
You need to use the clock the best you can, depending on where you stand in the match. This means ending games quickly, if you're behind. It means stretching games out, if you're ahead. If you don't, then you're showing a lack of experience ...
You are absolutely right! It's a strategy. What I felt was, it doesn't look good in the game of chess. Especially, when both of the players are the best of the best players in the world, fans expect them to earn the win by defeating the opponent. I just felt, Hikaru could have played another game and defeated Magnus to clinch the title. It was really weird when he had milked the clock in blitz portion where it was a threefold repetition draw And he waited for almost 1 minute to make the last move. I haven't seen many people doing the Same so strategically as Hikaru did.
Fair treatment, generosity and ethics are muted points on this site. Athletes outside of chess will know what I am talking about.
You are absolutely right! It's a strategy. What I felt was, it doesn't look good in the game of chess. Especially, when both of the players are the best of the best players in the world, fans expect them to earn the win by defeating the opponent. I just felt, Hikaru could have played another game and defeated Magnus to clinch the title. It was really weird when he had milked the clock in blitz portion where it was a threefold repetition draw And he waited for almost 1 minute to make the last move. I haven't seen many people doing the Same so strategically as Hikaru did.
It can be frustrating for some viewers to see. I understand that.
Though, Hikaru was aware that he was facing none other than Magnus Carlsen - arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. And also a player who has dominated him in so many different formats.
It makes sense, for Hikaru, to stretch out the clock in any lead that he has. Make the best of what you have, when you have it ... before it slips away.
You are absolutely right! It's a strategy. What I felt was, it doesn't look good in the game of chess. Especially, when both of the players are the best of the best players in the world, fans expect them to earn the win by defeating the opponent. I just felt, Hikaru could have played another game and defeated Magnus to clinch the title. It was really weird when he had milked the clock in blitz portion where it was a threefold repetition draw And he waited for almost 1 minute to make the last move. I haven't seen many people doing the Same so strategically as Hikaru did.
It can be frustrating for some viewers to see. I understand that.
Though, Hikaru was aware that he was facing none other than Magnus Carlsen - arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. And also a player who has dominated him in so many different formats.
It makes sense, for Hikaru, to stretch out the clock in any lead that he has. Make the best of what you have, when you have it ... before it slips away.
Exactly. That's what I felt too. He just didn't want to risk the match by giving Magnus another game. Though, I like Magnus in general, I am Not a typical fanboy of any player in particular. I just Love a good chess by any player. So, all I wanted was chess should have been the decisive factor , Not the time. Because, it's not like Magnus lost on time but it was like burning the time that's allotted for both players. The reason I mentioned sportsmanship remains Same in every circumstance is because if you remember the game between Nihal And Ding , Ding had lost the connection in completely winning position And Nihal gave him those points back in the next game by resigning early. The immediate response from the commentators was , "I just don't think anyone doing this in speed chess, that's a great sportsmanship by Nihal". This is how the true sportsmanship looks like for me. You keep your integrity high above anything else irrespective of the situation. I don't think anyone is wrong in expecting the Same from One of the best players like Hikaru!
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
When I use to do MMA, they have something call “wall and stall” and “lay and prey”, it was unsportsmanlike and unentertaining so the referee would break it up.
Those fighters don’t get invited back and are out of a job.
Sure, it is strategy.
It's chess, not MMA.
Fair treatment, generosity and ethics are muted points on this site. Athletes outside of chess will know what I am talking about.
Condescending much?
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
I am confused about this now. Why do we have report button for stalling then? I understand, stalling purposely is different from using it as a strategy to win the game. When you call it's an unsportsmanlike trait in the first case , how can the Same behaviour become a strategy in the other case! I just don't believe it can be both at the same time. I don't call it dirty though, it doesn't look good at all at such high level chess although it's perfectly OK to do that.
If you sum up the total no. of seconds of Hikaru's stalling time yesterday, it's almost 2 minutes (May be even More) which could have been really decisive. I don't know, I am on neither sides here, but I believe a true gentleman will always remain a gentleman irrespective of the circumstances. Anyways, congratulations to Hikaru!
If you are trying to win you should use every asset available. That is not unsportsmanlike.
If you are hopelessly lost and just running the clock, you aren't trying to win. That is unsportsmanlike.
Many sports have ways to run out the clock. There's nothing wrong with it. I don't hate the idea of having a game count instead of a match time, but I don't agree there is something inherently wrong with running out the clock. The only way you can run out the clock is to be ahead late in the game. And don't forget it doesn't always work. American Football has what's called a "Prevent Defense" which is intended to run out the clock from a winning position. The saying goes, "All a Prevent Defense does is prevent you from winning."
I actually thought that the clock related tactics added a lot of entertainment value to the game. You have more strategising about when to resign if you're loosing, the rush of Magnus needing to beat the clock even when he was winning in the last game etc. Plus it can create more upsets if a weaker player is able to get an early lead they can try and hang on to it by dragging games out and trying to make draws. Maybe it leads to lower quality chess sometimes in pursuing those tactics but chess quality isn't really what the SCC is for that's the World Championship's job it's more for entertainment.
I saw one game when Naka stalled the clock on a draw repetition to run the clock down; I get it that it is strategy but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Then I saw Magnus blunder a minor piece; that was enough for me to shut the stream off.
It's not unsportsmanlike. You are trying to win a competition. He exploited an advantage on the clock, part of the game.
I am confused about this now. Why do we have report button for stalling then? I understand, stalling purposely is different from using it as a strategy to win the game. When you call it's an unsportsmanlike trait in the first case , how can the Same behaviour become a strategy in the other case! I just don't believe it can be both at the same time. I don't call it dirty though, it doesn't look good at all at such high level chess although it's perfectly OK to do that.
If you sum up the total no. of seconds of Hikaru's stalling time yesterday, it's almost 2 minutes (May be even More) which could have been really decisive. I don't know, I am on neither sides here, but I believe a true gentleman will always remain a gentleman irrespective of the circumstances. Anyways, congratulations to Hikaru!
If you are trying to win you should use every asset available. That is not unsportsmanlike.
If you are hopelessly lost and just running the clock, you aren't trying to win. That is unsportsmanlike.
He was not hopelessly lost. He was running the clock when it was obvious threefold repetition. That just shows lack of fighting spirit. May be it's just that Hikaru didn't want to risk the match by giving More chances to Magnus. I am Not against this strategy, but I am telling it certainly doesn't look good for a true professionals like Hikaru whom millions of fans follow. These are the guys that represent chess now.
Fair treatment, generosity and ethics are muted points on this site. Athletes outside of chess will know what I am talking about.
Condescending much?
This is a chess website, did you think I was going to athletes to back me up?
Do words like fair treatment, generosity, integrity and ethics strike a chord with you?
I didn’t think so.
He was running the clock when it was obvious threefold repetition. That just shows lack of fighting spirit.
You say his clock management showed a lack of fighting spirit. I say it showed intelligence and experience.
Different perspectives on the same topic (as is usually the case, in so many things in life).
Hikaru also showed the same intelligence (in my opinion; or lack of fighting spirit, in your opinion) in other games, where he stretched out worse endings as long as possible, putting as many moves as possible onto the board.
These are conscious decisions to alter the moves he makes, from game to game, to maximize the impact of the clock on the match. It shows that he's ever-aware of the clock and its consequences - an awareness that comes from competing in this format for so many years.
I understand the desire, as a fan, to see chess, chess, chess. Forget the clock! Just duke it out!
But we can't fault a grandmaster for using a clock to his advantage. It's kind of what grandmasters do - they think ahead, strategize. They take the smallest advantages and nurse them into something concrete ...
He was running the clock when it was obvious threefold repetition. That just shows lack of fighting spirit.
You say his clock management showed a lack of fighting spirit. I say it showed intelligence and experience.
Different perspectives on the same topic (as is usually the case, in so many things in life).
Hikaru also showed the same intelligence (in my opinion; or lack of fighting spirit, in your opinion) in other games, where he stretched out worse endings as long as possible, putting as many moves as possible onto the board.
These are conscious decisions to alter the moves he makes, from game to game, to maximize the impact of the clock on the match. It shows that he's ever-aware of the clock and its consequences - an awareness that comes from competing in this format for so many years.
I understand the desire, as a fan, to see chess, chess, chess. Forget the clock! Just duke it out!
But we can't fault a grandmaster for using a clock to his advantage. It's kind of what grandmasters do - they think ahead, strategize. They take the smallest advantages and nurse them into something concrete ...
Intelligent?
This is the same Hikaru who got choked out in the streets of St Louis.
May be if he was literally more sportsmanlike and respected among crowds, he would have not gotten beaten up so badly.
Wow.
He was running the clock when it was obvious threefold repetition. That just shows lack of fighting spirit.
You say his clock management showed a lack of fighting spirit. I say it showed intelligence and experience.
Different perspectives on the same topic (as is usually the case, in so many things in life).
Hikaru also showed the same intelligence (in my opinion; or lack of fighting spirit, in your opinion) in other games, where he stretched out worse endings as long as possible, putting as many moves as possible onto the board.
These are conscious decisions to alter the moves he makes, from game to game, to maximize the impact of the clock on the match. It shows that he's ever-aware of the clock and its consequences - an awareness that comes from competing in this format for so many years.
I understand the desire, as a fan, to see chess, chess, chess. Forget the clock! Just duke it out!
But we can't fault a grandmaster for using a clock to his advantage. It's kind of what grandmasters do - they think ahead, strategize. They take the smallest advantages and nurse them into something concrete ...
Intelligent?
This is the same Hikaru who got choked out in St Louis in a street fight.
May be if he was literally more sportsmanlike and respected among crowds, he would have not have gotten beaten up so badly.
I think you are believing too many rumours. Beat up badly? You would be the first one to cry and report someone for abuse because they looked at you wrong. I know this for a fact .
You would have a better argument if you said HIkaru is unsportlike because he literally cheats on his stream for a living. By smurfing with anonymous accounts ion unsuspecting players to undermine the rating system and rob them of competitive matches. He even titles his youtube videos "Disrespecting players" admitting to how disgusting it is. And this is the guy leading by example that is supposed to be a role model for kids and he is teaching them how to manipulate ratings and be unsportlike.
But clock management is a major part of chess, whether a single game or a tournament like the SCC. And there is far too many players in this community who don't understand how difficult it is to do. Simply adapting between 5 min blitz and bullet is a feat. Thats why when I hear players suggest playing classical to get better at blitz, They are totally clueless that will most likely make them worse at blitz, because again it is about managing the time efficiently.
And one thing that separates these professionals from the average amateur is how well they can manage their time and excel in all time formats.
Define and clarify what “sportsmanship” means?
I've been watching SCC since the very first edition.
And for all these years the format has always been the same. 90/60/30 minutes for each time control.
And we all have to admit that this format hasn't aged well. It desperately requires to be updated.
The main reason - it encourages players to play dirty.
This is disgusting to watch. It's terrible sportsmanship, it's a terrible show. It doesn't do good for chess and the community, it ruins those matches, and ruins players' reputations.
It is extremely toxic and really unbearable to watch.
The peak of this toxicity was the last game between Hikaru and Magnus.
My proposition how to fix this for a better one:
- Use a fixed amount of games for each time control.
- NO TIMER FOR ENTIRE MATCH PLEASE.
- 8 games for 5+1, 10 for 3+1, and 10 for 1+1
That's it. Easy, great to watch, and no dirt. Duration of each match would stay the same.
Save the SCC.