Need Help, Mate, with this Self-Mate

Sort:
batgirl

Here is a Self-Mate in 2 problem from 1893:

null

Since it's a little hard to tell the colors apart, I put it in a viewer:



The "author's solution" is "Q-Kt6" (Qg6)  [the editor's solution is "Q-R5 ch" (Qh5+).

The "authors solution" allows mate-in-one (...Qd1#) [ the editor's solution, 1. Qh5+, because of the forcing check, seems to work after 1...Qf5 2.  Qxf5 Bxf5#].

Am I missing something??

 
 
kamalakanta

No, I think the Qh5+ solution is correct.

batgirl

@kindlestenssoro

There's only one "author's solution" -Qg6.   That move let's Black mate in one. So I don't understand it. 

The editor of the BCM found a different move - Qh5+ which seems to work perfectly.

The concept of self-mate is given in the image - White forces Black to mate him in 2 moves. 

 

@kamalakanta

How could the author give a cooked solution -  one that the editors of the BCM accepted?

Even two months after the problem was published, the editors found an alternate, working solution, but also gave the author's own solution as correct.   I don't see how it could be correct unless I'm mossing something. 

 

 

 

HalfSicilin

I don't know why you would want to help your opponent mate you but what about 1.e 4, Q x e 4+ ; 2. K g1 ; Q g 2 # ?

batgirl

@ JamesColeman

Thanks.

The pawn belongs there. I took the image from the original source and well as the solution from it's original source.  So, those other places have transcription errors.

But you hit on what I was wondering.. if there is a faster mate than in the number of proscribed moves, does it count or is it ignored?  To me it seems like having a faster mate, even if it doesn't count, would make the problem inferior.  I can't believe I'm the only one who ever noticed the mate-in-one, and that's what makes me think I'm missing something - or don't understand something - intrinsic to self-mates. 

batgirl

@iusegambits

after your 1....Qxe4, 2. NxQ

kamalakanta

Batgirl, I have to admit....I have never liked self-mates! it goes against my psyche.... the mere concept that I would make a move to help someone mate my king horrifies me. It is probably very useful to do self-mate problems, and so on.....but for me, it does not work!

It is like music....I much prefer orchestral music to opera....what can I say?

batgirl

I appreciate what you are saying, but the Queens are definitely different:

null

batgirl

kamalakanta,  I don't much like working on them either as they require throwing a switch in the brain.   But self-mate is a valid problem subset and this one has a particular interest to me outside of its type. 

batgirl

Sure.  And you can see how the white king and the white queen are similar to a degree.

null

batgirl

And here is a close-up of the Kings and Queens from a problem on the same page:

null

aries1961

Having researched I found this definition:
Selfmate - A type of problem in which White plays first and forces Black to give mate in the specified number of moves, while Black does not cooperate and tries to avoid mating White.

Source: http://www.ozproblems.com/problem-world/selfmates-seriesmovers

Another interesting site: http://www.theproblemist.org/what-are-chess-problems/29-selfmates

Hope this helps.

blueemu
 
White to play and self-mate in nine moves.
 
batgirl

It's the way it appeared in print.

Rocky64
aries1961 wrote:

Having researched I found this definition:
Selfmate - A type of problem in which White plays first and forces Black to give mate in the specified number of moves, while Black does not cooperate and tries to avoid mating White.

Source: http://www.ozproblems.com/problem-world/selfmates-seriesmovers

 

Thanks, aries, for linking to my site! I noticed this thread yesterday, was too busy to reply, and now a nice surprise to see something I wrote got quoted!

 

@batgirl. The intended solution 1.Qg6! works because no matter what Black does next, White can force Black to mate on the second move, e.g. 1...Qxg6 2.Nxg6+ Bxg6, 1...Qf5 2.Qxf5+ Bxf5, 1...Qe4 2.Qxe4+ Bxe4, 1...Qd3 2.Nxd3+ Bxd3.

1.Qh5+ is indeed a cook. Could be fixed by adding a WP on h5, but I haven't computer-tested it.

 

batgirl

1.Qg6 Qd1#

 

Rocky64
batgirl wrote:

1.Qg6 Qd1#

As mentioned in the definition of selfmates above, Black does not cooperate, so there's no reason for Black to play 1...Qd1#. In the variations of both the solution and the cook, every black mating move is forced.

batgirl
Rocky64 wrote:
batgirl wrote:

1.Qg6 Qd1#

As mentioned in the definition of selfmates above, Black does not cooperate, so there's no reason for Black to play 1...Qd1#. In the variations of both the solution and the cook, every black mating move is forced.

I see.  That's very counter-intuitive.  Thank you.  That explains my question.

krudsparov

Rocky64  Qg6....c5  then white can't force black to mate next move.  Ng6 forces mate in 3  Qxg6   Qxg6 and blacks only move that doesn't mate white is c5 then Qf5 forces the B to capture, 0-1 

Rocky64
krudsparov wrote:

Rocky64  Qg6....c5  then white can't force black to mate next move. 

Actually after 1.Qg6! c5, White can force Black to mate next move. Hint: White puts Black in zugzwang!